Re:Scary - 2005/01/11 07:13Hi. Surely the more serious the theme the more vital it is that we examine it? And I do think that Scriptures were used as a basis for discussion. Howver we must contribute to our examination of the Scriptures with our own power of reason. As JW's there are, imho, many doctrines that we have accepted with far less Scriptural basis than was provided in this thread and the essays which prompted it.
Philia.
Phi
Post edited by: Phi, at: 2005/01/11 07:14
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Eden
User Platinum Boarder
Posts: 195
Re:Scary - 2005/01/11 13:01The point of the topic, IMO, is NOT to blame God for sin and death. Nor is it about finding someone to blame. The point, in my opinion, from my point of view, is to draw attention to Jehovah's abundant and limitless benevolence, which moves his creatures to say, “You are worthy, Jehovah, even our God, to receive the glory and the honor and the power, because you created all things, and because of your will they existed and were created."
He is God almighty. The buck stops with him. To take responsibility away from Him and give it to Satan or Adam is the essence of the entire universal issue; Who gets to be God?
He is not to blame for the choices Satan, or Adam or even us today make. But, because he is God, he is responsible for setting things right. True, He can choose not to, He can do what he wants. But if He chose not to, how would he be righteous? Romans 3:25 explains the reason Jehovah gave his son - to exhibit his own righteousness, yes, paying the ransom is an act of righteousness, if he did not give it, he would NOT be unrighteous! [This may be shocking to you, but consider the ramifications of insinuating Jehovah didn't have to shed his son's blood, this imputs stupidity, and the wanton shedding of innocent blood on Jehovah's part, Jehovah's righteousness was called into question by the devil and Jehovah's righteousness was proven thru the giving of his son.] He has chosen to rescue us from these bodies undergoing this death, praise Jah! This choice of His, has shown Him up, to be righteous, and abundant in undeserved kindness - truely, a God worthy of praise.
This discusion is entirely based on scripture, and meditating on it has deepened my love and appreciation of my father in the heavens.
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Epignossis
Visitor
Re:Scary - 2005/01/12 17:23Hi Michael, I can understand your strong emotional feelings on a subject that might even call into question Jehovah's righteousness. Interestingly, he himself was prepared for such an accusation. It seems to me that he is comfortable with his intelligent creation doing examining the issue in good faith.
That aside, I have set out here how I address the issue and hope that it helps.
While there is responsibility for individual acts, there is also something I think of as "system accountability".
For example in Israel, while individuals were failing in applying proper justice, there was accountability for the leaders who allowed such a system to proliferate. There had been no stamping out of the problem.
Today, war criminals are held responsible for their direct acts. However, the leaders are held accountable even though they did not perform the actual acts themselves.
Accountability is not the same as guilt. It is the obligation or liability to provide an accounting. It may be shown that a person is quite innocent. Or alternatively that he has provided appropriate compensation for what happens.
Thisis the principle set out with the goring bull. If you are the owner of the bull and the bull is in your paddock, the accountability is with you to ensure the bull is under control.
If the bull is allowed to run and has gored already, or you reasonably know it will gore, then accountability lies with you, not just your attendants. It may be that the attendants can be held directly responsible for the failure to take proper measures. But if you as paddock and bull owner allow it to run loose in those circumstances and fail to restrain it and it gores, then you can properly be held to account and it is proper to seek compensation from you.
In the case of Jehovah, he gave us all free will. That necessarily meant the opportunity for individuals to act outside his will (his will always being perfect and never resulting in harm).
Doing so meant taking accountability for the system he created, along with the possibility for individuals to act outside his will and bring about harm.
Even though he is not directly responsible for the bad acts of individuals he is accountable for the system that could give rise to them. So what is his accountability and obligation?
First he must have known before he established free will, that he was able to undo any harm coming from this.
Second, he must have known someone would eventually test the issue of free will and do bad
Third he must have considered going through a "temporary glitch" worthwhile because of the huge benefits of his creation acting in harmony with his will forever, doing so voluntarily and out of love.
However, was it sufficient just to undo the physical harm and restore things as before?
For example, if I punch you in the eye, and then go and pay for your doctor's bill and make sure you get all medical care to restore you physically is that enough?? What about the grief? Ok, I pay you 10 million dollars to cover the grief. Most juries might agree that was more than sufficient compensation for grief.
Having compensated, there is still this question of righteous indignation - what right did I have to do this? Or was it right for me to do this?
In Jehovah's case it was right for him to do this - to let the bull run. As mentioned above, this is because it settles the issue which was bound to arise and teaches all creation, including the angels that acting outside Jehovah's will does not work. Free will then, is about acting freely within God's will.
In that environment (or paddock) we can ask anything of God and it would be granted us because it is in his will.
We have focused on the ransom as being the basis for equalising mankind's loss. Yet as pointed out, it is not sufficient to merely restore mankind back to the former position. There is still grief to be addressed. The purpose of the ransom therefore is to propitiate or appease the grief on our part as well as to show the way that mankind can be restored.
True, death and sin may have entered into the world as a result of one man and it may be taken away by the ransom. That does not mean Jehovah is not accountable for his system or that the ransom does more than just restore.
Well, I know this is a bit long but I hope the thoughts here can provide some level of comfort in dealing with the deeply concerning matter.
Very much love, spirit and peace to you Michael.
Epignossis
Post edited by: epignossis, at: 2005/01/13 10:30
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servent1
User Senior Boarder
Posts: 15
Re:Scary - 2005/01/20 08:26 Hey how you all been awhile Hope u all doing fine and your families
Thank for the imput, isnt it good to be free to have answered some of those far reaching ?s that we do not ask. I jus poped in this mornin 2 catch I be back to add some thin later
Take good care of your selfs much much much christian love from us all here in middle of it all
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