Epignossis
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Re:tribulation/trampling/'chosen ones' - 2005/03/27 15:33
hey A
This is a great topic. You have really got me thinking about this one. I just took it for granted that "everyone" that could "discern" woulda been outta there. Also, the comaparison between Matt and Mark on one hand and Luke on the other is interesting.
In Matt and Mark Jesus says let they had to use discernment. Probably coz it wasn't so obvious. But in Luke its seems things have reached a stage where it is flamin obvious - like how you gonna miss seeing "Jerusalem surrounded". In either case by the time you get to "Jerusalem surrounded" the clear and obvious sign, you would think they would all shoot through.
So, a coupla thoughts plonk through my head at this point (based on your good observation) - is Jerusalem a place? Also what is the tribulation? Is this the same as the trampling. How long do they last?
It seems the answer has to tie in to Revelation. This is because we read about the "holy city" being trampled for a specific period - 42 months. (see Rev 11:2). Jesus of course at Luke 21:24 mentions that Jerusalem will be trampled for the appointed times. We also see the wild beast has authority 42 month and to conquer the holy ones - Rev 13:5-7
And a mouth speaking great things and blasphemies was given it, and authority to act forty-two months was given it. 6 And it opened its mouth in blasphemies against God, to blaspheme his name and his residence, even those residing in heaven. 7 And there was granted it to wage war with the holy ones and conquer them,
So if the trampling of Jerusalem in Luke is the same trampling of Rev 11:2, then it would seem that the appointed times is 42 months. This would also seem to be confirmed by Daniel 12:7. For a PowerPoint show relating to the appointed times see here .)
Well, that still leaves your issue A, about the holy ones.
I guess my point in putting the above is that the trampling is on the holy ones! Daniel calls it a "dashing of the power of the holy people to pieces".
Ok but the next question is "is this the same as the tribulation?" - the tribulation which is cut short for the sake of the "chosen ones". Here we are assuming "holy ones" and "chosen ones" are the same. I think there may be a difference here but I will save that till later.
The conclusion I have come to after thinking about your point A, is yes they are both the same - tribulation and trampling. Clearly, when the holy ones are trampled they will indeed feel tribulated. But I see a number of different things happening during this tribulating/trampling
One purpose of the tribulation is for refining and cleansing as we are told about in Malachi. A purpose of the trampling I think is to permit the Wild Beast and in particular the False Prophet to manifest itself fully. I believe at the end of the 42 months or 1260 days, the "Restraint" as mentioned in 2 Thess 2:7 will be out of the way. The Restraint is the "chosen ones". More on the restraint later.
In the meantime however, the tribulation will have been cut short for the sake of the chosen ones. When is this? I think this is the period referred to in Dan 8:13 - the 2300 mornings and evenings - which = 1150 days. That's coz there are a morning and evening per day. Notice 1150 days is short of 1260 days by 110 days. I think this is the cutting short.
So here we have holy ones being trampled and tribulated for 1150 days of the 1260 days. After the 1150 days the holy place comes into a "right condition" as mentioned in Dan 8:13. However, the chosen ones are still trampled until the end of the 42 months or 1260 days.
There is a difference now, though. A selecting or "choosing" has taken place at this point - with the holy place coming into a right condition. It is brought into a right condition with God afet 1150 days, even though it is still subject to the trampling by the nations for the "appointed times".
I believe this is the point where the "sealing" takes place i.e. at this point all of spiritual Israel has been gathered and refined. Then out of that larger un-numbered group, 144,000 are sealed as mentioned in Rev 7:4-5.
So it really is on account of the "chosen ones" that the tribulation is cut short. They are now approved as far God is concerned.
Ok some may argue with my distinction between holy ones and chosen ones. I use these terms because for me anyway, it helps to highlight that there is a choosing at this point. This is an incredibly awsome occasion because this is also when I think we see the full Joel 2 scenario occuring. There will be no doubt who are spiritual Israel and who are sealed. On that basis many will "take hold of the skirt of a Jew" and believe.
I believe this sealing is also the time to imprint a seal upon vision and prophet referred to in Dan 9:24. In other words it marks the 70 weeks prophecy where a number of matters needed to be completed.
Anyway coming back to your point A
I think you are right - the holy ones don't flee Jerusalem - they ARE Jerusalem
They get trampled for 42 months (1260 days) by the nations
They under-go tribulation but that is cut short - after 1150 days
After that there is a choosing or sealing when the holy city is brought into a right condition
That marks a whole heaps of awsome things occuring leading up to the end of the 1260 days.
Look forward to hearing any others too
ePig 
Knowledge puffs up, but love builds up. If anyone thinks he has acquired knowledge of something, he does not yet know it just as he ought to know it. But if anyone loves God, this one is known by him - 1 Cor 8:1-3 |
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