Re:A RANSOM TO SATISFY THE DEMANDS OF LOVE... - 2004/09/14 17:05Hi Izzy and Shaihulud! I feel like I got this fire going and I've hardly been around to take the rap! Shaihulud, I think I understand your concern. If the writer (and me and Izzy) are suggesting that Jehovah is required to forgive Satan and Adam and Eve, then we are in absolute error!! No way!! Over this last weekend I have been doing alot of study on this matter and have had massive conversations with the writer, (he is currently writing another longer essay to do with Jehovah's righteousness) any way...I have discovered a profound truth regarding our freewill. Our Freewill is limited whereas Adam's (or Satan's) was not. Romans chapter 7: 21 - 25, has Paul complaining about not being able to do the good he wishes...miserable man that I am...he says...who will rescue me from the body undergoing this death? ...Thanks to God thru Jesus Christ our lord... This war that we have in our members, the war between the law of our minds and Sin's law, is a war only imperfect humans have - Adam did not have this struggle, he had feewill, and chose to rebel against God. He went against his natural inclination, as did Satan. So, according to do requirements of righteousness, Jehovah is NOT required to forgive them. However, as Paul points out, we do not have this freewill, we are captives of sin, thru no fault of our own. Thus to fulfill the requirements of righteousness, Jehovah must provide a way for us to reconcile to him.
Along with this though, is the choice for sinful humans to either complain about their sinful condition, and 'really delight in the law of Jehovah according to the man they are within' OR enjoy the temporary enjoyment of sin, thus saying to God, 'thanks anyway for having your precsious Son slaughtered for us, but we actually like it the way it is.' People who make the latter choice absolve Jehovah from any responsibilty to save them, because in their minds the is no injustice needing to be put right.
Sometimes I think it is hard to communicate this way because (speaking for myself) In my efforts to be breif I miss out the bridges in my reasoning hoping we're on the same page...
This issue of Jehovah's righteousness is very dear to me (I can't explain it, probably similar to e-w with the prophets...) IMHO, this is a very important issue.
Much love SoC
PS - without wanting to make you feel ganged up on Shaihulud, Izzy has explained my point of veiw in his posts.
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admin
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Re:A RANSOM TO SATISFY THE DEMANDS OF LOVE... - 2004/09/14 17:07This is my last post on this subject cause its giving me a headache. Where I stand is..... Jehovah is not guilty or responsible for sin or for the capabilty of those who have free will to sin. Free will and life is a gift. Those who chose to abuse that free will will pay the price. Jehovah is a God of Love. Therefore even though he is not responsible for sin and death. He takes responsibilty for the benifit of those who did not choose to be born in sin. So he lovingly provided the ransom for us even though he did not have too. It is underserved kindness for him to do it. Jehovah giveth and Jehovah taketh. Let the name of Jehovah be blessed.
He is not deserving of death nor is he in need of a ransom. To say so is Blasphemous. I'll pray that you can understand that. If I'm wrong Jehovah will show me but better to not lay accusations on the almighty that he is responsible for any wrong doing and he is derserving of death.
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Phi
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Re:A RANSOM TO SATISFY THE DEMANDS OF LOVE... - 2004/09/14 18:04Arghhh! I just spent ages writing a long post! Forgot to save it and tried to post when my internet connection had been lost. It's all gone....
Nevermind. I'll try again tommorrow.
When will I ever learn? Always save!
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Eden
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Re:A RANSOM TO SATISFY THE DEMANDS OF LOVE... - 2004/09/15 16:37Hi Shaihulud I know you have said it is your last words on the subject, but I think we’re getting our wires crossed, and I feel I need to clarify my position. Your bits are in green… You said: This is my last post on this subject cause its giving me a headache. Where I stand is..... Jehovah is not guilty I couldn’t agree more
or responsible for sin, or for the capability of those who have free will to sin. well here I disagree, isn’t that what being God means? He is responsible for everything, isn’t he? IMHO, trying to absolve him from any responsibility is assuming his position isn’t it? He is God, he created life and freewill, is freewill a mistake? No! Did he know that freewill in his creatures was an opening for independence from him? Yes! He is all knowing, isn’t he? Did he know what he had to do to bring in a righteous and perfect universe with billions of intelligent free agents? Yes, of course! Even if some of these free agents stuffed it up? Yes! Of course! Free will and life is a gift. Yes! Undeserved! Those who chose to abuse that free will will pay the price. Yes! Jehovah is a God of Love. Yes! Therefore even though he is not responsible for sin and death. OK, this might be splitting hairs, but he is responsible for freewill, which is entirely open to abuse by the free agents, He takes responsibilty for the benifit of those who did not choose to be born in sin. True, the wilful sinners who choose sin and death, are not covered by the ransom, Jehovah is not obliged to save them. He is obliged to save those that put faith in the ransom because that is what he promised to do. So he lovingly provided the ransom for us YES even though he did not have too. NO! Can you see what you are saying here? Is the shedding of innocent blood OK if the motivation is love? Where is the righteousness in that? If Jehovah didn’t have to do it He wouldn’t have done it!! If there was another way for him to bring in righteousness forever he would have done it that way, wouldn’t he?!! Righteousness is adherence to law, but more than that, to the higher, moral law. In order for His righteousness to be manifest, Jehovah had to offer Jesus, otherwise he would have made his righteousness manifest some other way. (Luke 24:25-27, Romans 3:25,26) It is underserved kindness for him to do it. Yes, it is, but it is also righteous – it adheres to moral law. Jehovah giveth and Jehovah taketh. Let the name of Jehovah be blessed. AMEN!! He is not deserving of death of course not! But that is because he IS righteous. I realise we are talking ‘ifs and buts’ but the reason I feel it is so important, is these are the very things the Devil has levelled against our father, and will use against him in the future. We need to be deeply aware of this bedrock foundation of our faith. The ransom of Jesus is the most profound act of righteous love, in the history of intelligent life! (Agape – principled love; love based on principles such as righteousness) nor is he in need of a ransom. Well, he paid one. I looked up the word ‘propitiation’ in the dictionary for the first time the other day, it means ‘appeasement’ – so did Jehovah offer us this appeasement so that we could appease Him? If the onus was on humankind to make appeasement to God, then we would have to work the debt off, we cannot be declared righteous by works only by faith in the ransom, (Ransom = the appeasement from God). If he was paying our debt to him, how is that righteous? Sure it is loving, but it is not righteous – moral law dictates that the one who owes the debt must pay it. Jehovah’s righteousness was manifest by the ransom not ours. To say so is Blasphemous. To accept responsibility for your own sin is denying the ransom. This is not as an excuse for loose conduct but Jehovah has rescued us from the body undergoing this death by means of the ransom. (Romans 7:21-25) I'll pray that you can understand that. I thank you for your loving concern, and I understand where your coming from, the last thing I want is to impute wickedness to my father, but I am not doing that. ‘Never may that happen!’ If I'm wrong Jehovah will show me but better to not lay accusations on the almighty that he is responsible for any wrong doing and he is derserving of death. I haven’t accused Jehovah of wrong doing or said that he is deserving of death, that is NOT what has been said – Satan has charged Jehovah with this slander, and the futility of human history to date would prove Satan true if Jehovah, the righteous loving Almighty God, subjected the creation to this futility without the basis of hope – thru faith in the Ransom. His name has been dragged thru the mud and He will sanctify and vindicate himself at the end of these days and the end of our faith.
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GermanShepherd
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Re:A Ransom to Satisfy the Demands of Love... - 2004/09/18 16:07I will respond to the issues raised here shortly. Please think while you read. Also, please check out the other essays posted here by me under the name "Hermenutic ministry.non-com" and give your feedback.
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Shaihulud
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Re:A Ransom to Satisfy the Demands of Love... - 2004/09/19 13:59There are two things especially that I take issue with in this essay.
One - is that you say Jehovah is deserving of death. If Jehovah is righteous and has always been righteous then he would never be deserving of death.
Two - if Christ's sacrifice was to cover Jehovahs ommission of sin and subjecting the creation to futility thus becoming deserving of death and needing a ransom then Christ would have to give up his spirit life which was the exact representation of his being. Giving up his human life would not cover Jehovah. The sacrifice was for mankind not for Jehovah.
Jehovah created all things and he does take responsibility for his creation. But just cause two of his creatures abused their free will and therefore the creation was subjucted to futility does not mean God is guilty of sin or wrong doing and which would make him liable to death and he would need a ransom.
It is one thing to say Jehovah takes responsibility for his creation but another to say he is guilty of unrighteousness and is in need of a ransom.
Christ is not equal to God so he could not even be a ransom for God. Unless you want to start teaching that Jesus was not a man on earth and he was a Godman like Christendom teaches or that he is part of a trinity.
To say that God needs a ransom or is deserving of death would be saying that he did something wrong or unrighteous thus he need to correct his unrighteousness by doing something righteous.
40 And Jehovah proceeded to answer Job and say:
2 “Should there be any contending of a faultfinder with the Almighty? Let the reprover of God himself answer it.”
(Isaiah 45:9) Woe to the one that has contended with his Former, as an earthenware fragment with the other earthenware fragments of the ground! Should the clay say to its former: “What do you make?” And your achievement [say]: “He has no hands”?
Correct me if I am wrong but I find no fault with the almighty.
Could Jehovah be considered unrigheous if he did not send a ransom for US. Yes. Because we were subjected not by our own will. So it is righteous that Jehovah provided the ranson for US, not for him. We needed release for sin not him. We are subject to death not him.
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