Re:A Ransom to Satisfy the Demands of Love... - 2004/09/20 08:08Hi Shaihulud! I think we are making headway here! You make some excellent points, and I think I see your point of veiw... Correct me if I'm wrong, are these two parragraphs the ones you have issues with? Quotes from the essay: Such injustice casts grave doubt on God’s righteousness. Shifting the blame to Adam and Eve, or Satan, while seemingly done to defend him, does in fact add cowardice and irresponsibility to the charges against Jehovah’s character. How could he despise Adam for passing the buck and then do it himself, without incurring the additional charge of hypocrisy? Should God be above the law he gave to his creatures? ... Jehovah illustrated this judicial decision in Exodus 21 verses 28 to 31. “If a bull was formerly in the habit of goring and warning was served on its owner but he would not keep it under guard, and it did put a man or a woman to death, the bull is to be stoned and also its owner is to be put to death.” Jehovah clearly knew the murderous intent of Satan, and actually invented the genetic mechanism for passing on sin and death to everyone. He didn’t keep his vicious ‘bull’ under guard and thus became liable for the death of everyone, deserving to be put to death himself!
I'm going to make some comments on these two parragraphs and the 'german hemenutic shepherd' can correct me if I'm wrong... IMO, both these parragraphs voice the private questionings of people that have not yet come to know God, NOT the veiw point of the author. Without the knowledge of God and His provision for our eternal life, the above questions and statements are fair; the WT addresses a similar issue when heading a chapter, 'why does God permit suffering?' People who have not yet come to know God, or become known by Him, are right to question God's righteousness, actually, they are revealing their honest hearts. As Paul said, 'how can they put faith in something they have not heard of...'
So, IMO, the author (HM.non-com) is not saying Jehovah is deserving of death, he is addressing that very accusation.
The second point you raised, Jesus having to give up his spirit life etc is a fair comment too. The law to do with the 'goring bull' needs to be meditated on. Remember, Jehovah provided this law, so the law is perfect and just etc.
The owner of the bull - this could be a poor person, whose only possesion was a useless bull. So the ransom imposed on this person may only be the life of the bull because that's 'all that could be imposed upon him'. Whereas, if the bull owner was a king, then 'all that could be imposed on him' is his kingdom! The victims of the goring bull do not get much compensation if the owner was poor. So the provsion of this ransom didnot make compensation for the victims of the goring bull, but satisfied the demands of righteousness where the owner was concerned. (This does not undo the fact that it also pays for us, this is in addition to and as well as...) So, what ransom could be imposed upon Jehovah for allowing His goring bull to gore thruout these millenia? All that could be imposed upon him. The only creature He made single handedly, his only begotten Son. This ransom does not equal the value of Jehovah's life, but it is 'all that could be imposed upon him'. Jehovah didn't have to make one creature first, or make him mortal - He could have made the whole universe in one hit, 1,000,000,000 angels just like that. But he didn't, He made Jesus first. And He made him mortal, so actually, when Jesus came to earth he gave up his spirit life and his human life.
This issue is profoundly multi faceted!!!
Post edited by: SoC, at: 2004/09/20 08:09
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Michael
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Re:A Ransom to Satisfy the Demands of Love... - 2004/10/19 20:33Forgive me if I'm a little confused as to who wrote this article, but it seems SoC, that you speak for the author. Your enthusiasm is commendable, but again there is confusion on my part as to some of your arguments.
You and/or the author say that Jehovah paid a ransom in accord with the principle of the "goring bull". And he was liabel to pay "all he could".
If that is true, then Jesus should have died as a spirit, and not a lower form of life. Otherwise, animal sacrifices would have been sufficient for us. Also, if it were true that this 'propitiation' was for Jehovah, then it is deceitful to call Jesus the "last Adam".
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Phi
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Re:A Ransom to Satisfy the Demands of Love... - 2004/10/20 12:12Hi Michael. Nice to meet you. I hope you don't mind me responding with a couple of points.
If Jesus died, and did not exist AT ALL either as a human OR a spirit for 3 days. Then his 'death' encompassed both physical and spirit existence.
I also don't think that it would have been misleading to call Jesus the last Adam in this case. He is the last Adam in the sense that death came through Adam and life came through Jesus. This does not address for whose 'fault' the ransom is to cover, but rather addresses it's beneficial results for humans.
Much Philia
Izzy.
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Eden
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Re:A Ransom to Satisfy the Demands of Love... - 2004/10/20 12:44Hi Micheal, Can you clarify for me, why you say animal sacrifices would be suficient...I don't follow your reasoning there.
As for Jesus dying as a spirit....the ransom was paid for humankind, the creation subjected to futility - the angels, or the spirit creation, have not been subjected to futility. Thus the gift or the ransom had to be made in the physical realm - that is how God's righteousness was manifested or exhibited, if it was made in the spirit realm we would have no exhibit to look at. Actually, you could say, it was made in the spirit realm in that Jesus gave up his spirit life to live as a man and when he died, is spirit died too.
This does not undo Jesus being the last Adam.
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Michael
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Re:A Ransom to Satisfy the Demands of Love... - 2004/10/20 18:22SoC I quoted from your own words regarding what the owner of the bull had to pay. I can't put it any other way. Also, the reference to animals. Jesus as a man was a lower life form than he was as spirit. Therefore, if his sacrifice was to cover Jehovah's "omission", then the price wasn't up to it.
In regard to Jehovah's "omission", can I ask you a question?
If Jehovah "omitted" to provide some 'safety net', what do you suggest he should have done?
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Eden
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Posts: 195
Re:A Ransom to Satisfy the Demands of Love... - 2004/10/21 13:43when you speak of 'the ommision of a safety net' I assume you mean free will. What would I suggest Jehovah do differently? NOTHING! From my point of veiw, it seems Jehovah's will is for the universe to be inhabited with intelligent free agents, who love righteousness as he does. As it happens, not all of intelligent creation love righteousness, and with the added factor of free will these ones can wreck havoc spoiling Jehovah's purpose. So there has always and will always be an opening for badness as long as free will is in place. Case in point: Satan, Adam and Eve.
But Jehovah has put trust in his creatures, and has given Jesus in an act of faith in us - He trusts that at least some humans will trust him, and love him, and have faith in him and the gift of his son - thus proving Satan a liar. That is why Job is such an awesome case, his faith that Jehovah was righteous was so strong even though he had no manifestation of Jehovah's righteousness, but he beleived He was, no matter what. Satan charges each of us with same thing he accused Job of - but Jehovah trusts us, like he did Job. The gift of freewill was an act of trust too, and the ransom of Jesus pays for the damage of wreckless use of freewill. So the end result, ie: Jehovah's will being done in heaven and on earth, will see the universe inhabited with perfect, inteligent free agents who love righteousness as Jehovah does. The hardship of human history was necessary to prove Jehovah's righteousness. Labour pains.
As far as Jesus human life not being as valuable as his spirit life, I disagree. Just because he became a lower life form does not make him any less valuable. When Jesus walked the earth, was Satan more valuable to Jehovah than Jesus just because he was a spirit?
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