"The problem with those of you that desire to live on a restore earth is that you refer to it as a "hope" when the scriptures never describe it as such. It is not a hope, it is your desire, there is a difference."
In other words, you desire it but that does not mean that God truely desires you to live there?
"There is only one hope mentioned in scriptures and that is the heavenly hope the only hope for those who profess to be Christians, the Christian hope."
Again, how is this statement of yours any different then what the Fundamental Protestants offer? They too, tell us that heaven is 'THEE' 'ONLY' hope. And once again you insult the earthly Christians by refering to them as NOT truely 'Christian,' or else they would surely desire heaven. If YOU desire heaven..then good for you... but stop trying to change OUR desire..then is hardly any difference the the fundamental Protestants trying to force us non-trinitarianisns to give up our bibical unitarian view of God and embrace the trinity view instead. Again to such pro-trinitarians I'd say, "If YOU wish to believe in the trinity view of God..then whatever blews your skirt up for you...but stop trying to force us to become trinitarian.
Trying to force a belief on someone if very intolerant and thus fundamentalist. Most here desire reform JW's fundamental ways of trying to force things on people...therfore why would we like it from non-JW religious sources? Besides, while we DO appreciate the basics that Russell and Jw both have taught about hell simply being sheol and so forth....I don;t think many reformers here care to creature worship or revear neither JW's 'organization', nor Russell as the so-called, "Faith Slave"/Faithful Servent."
Many people are aware, RR, that you were once a JW elder and that then you have become a major elder and spokeman for the Bible Students. It appears that the fundamental ways that you were encourage to embrace in JW..have merely been transfered into Bible Students-ism. It seems you merely have traded brand A of fundamentalism to brand B....but either way..it is still fundamentalism..in that you seem not to be tolerant of others who care to hold a 'differen't desire, eternal life destiny or yes, even 'Hope."
JW's seem not to be able to stand or tolerate anyone around them such as close family members or the like being something other than JW and embracing the 'Organization.' It seems like that you, as a Bible Student can not stand or tolerate anyone not embracing your heaven-ONLY hope. Just as JW's seem pre-occupied with converting everyone into the org..you seem pre-occupied with converting everyone into heaven.
| | The topic has been locked.
BeachOfEden
User Platinum Boarder
Posts: 70
Re:2 Salvations? - 2005/05/08 08:39..continued...
Lots of time non-JW family members, co-workers and ect...grow exasperated and annoyed with JW's and their agressive fundamentalistists ways of constantly pestering everyone to join the organization and wonder why the hell JW's are so agressive on this? The answer is because those in the JW org believe and are taught that those who reject the organization are in danger of Armageddon getting them. Well, RR, you are no longer JW, so ovbiously you no longer fear individuals getting destroyed at Armageddon for simply not agreeing with and embracing the JW 'organization," which IS an improvement..but have you since then come to view Heaven as THEE big grand prize for true Christians and that the paradise earth is some sort of booby-prize..kinda like on that old game show "Let's Make A Deal," and that in your view heaven is like the grand prize and that paradise earth is like being sent home with a year's supply of Turtle Wax.
Well, YOu may well indeed view paradsie earth as some-sort of half-ass prize..but to restored earth destiny being 'Christians' it IS The Grand Prize.
| | The topic has been locked.
RR
User Expert Boarder
Posts: 24
Re:2 Salvations? - 2005/05/08 15:57RR: "The problem with those of you that desire to live on a restore earth is that you refer to it as a "hope" when the scriptures never describe it as such. It is not a hope, it is your desire, there is a difference."
Eden: In other words, you desire it but that does not mean that God truely desires you to live there?
No, that is not what I said. Living on earth is not a scriptural defined “hope”. The fact that you recognize the heavenly calling but deny it its invitation because you choose to live on earth is YOUR desire. This is not the scriptural hope. When the scriptures talk about the “one hope” it is in regards to the heavenly call.
RR: "There is only one hope mentioned in scriptures and that is the heavenly hope the only hope for those who profess to be Christians, the Christian hope."
Eden: Again, how is this statement of yours any different then what the Fundamental Protestants offer? They too, tell us that heaven is 'THEE' 'ONLY' hope. And once again you insult the earthly Christians by refering to them as NOT truely 'Christian,' or else they would surely desire heaven. If YOU desire heaven..then good for you... but stop trying to change OUR desire..then is hardly any difference the the fundamental Protestants trying to force us non-trinitarianisns to give up our bibical unitarian view of God and embrace the trinity view instead. Again to such pro-trinitarians I'd say, "If YOU wish to believe in the trinity view of God..then whatever blews your skirt up for you...but stop trying to force us to become trinitarian.
Wow, you got all that from a simple comment? You sure love to read into things. The “one hope” is not the only way to salvation, so do not lump us in with Trinitarian believers. The problem is you choose to not see what the whole purpose of “gathering out a people for his name” is all about. The problem with Christendom is they claim the ONLY way to salvation is heaven, you better to say that Bible Students believe the same. The world of mankind will inherit the earth, but there is a special calling for those who have a hearing ear to sacrifice now, for the glory ahead, namely a part of the Christian congregation, the Church, the called out ones, the ecclesia.
Simply calling yourself a “Christian” because you believe in Christ is not enough, many would call themselves Christians as Jesus predicted in Matthew 7:22,23: "Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name and in thy name. . .done many wonderful works? And then I will profess unto them, I never knew you. . ." (as Christians).
Eden: Many people are aware, RR, that you were once a JW elder and that then you have become a major elder and spokeman for the Bible Students. It appears that the fundamental ways that you were encourage to embrace in JW..have merely been transfered into Bible Students-ism. It seems you merely have traded brand A of fundamentalism to brand B....but either way..it is still fundamentalism..in that you seem not to be tolerant of others who care to hold a 'differen't desire, eternal life destiny or yes, even 'Hope."
I don’t have an intolerance for those who desire to live on earth and reap the restitution blessings. There are many children of consecrated Bible Students who have no desire to go to heaven, because the cost to is too much and they are not willing to make such sacrifices, so they opt to live a righteous life in accord with the scriptures. Some call this a “consecration unto righteousness.”
My problem is that your ministry is an attempt to undermine the scriptural call of the Church, and focus on earth. If you truly desire to spread the word, then you would, as Bible Students do, declare “the whole counsel of God”, God’s plan and let the individual decide what he wished to do.
Eden: JW's seem not to be able to stand or tolerate anyone around them such as close family members or the like being something other than JW and embracing the 'Organization.' It seems like that you, as a Bible Student can not stand or tolerate anyone not embracing your heaven-ONLY hope. Just as JW's seem pre-occupied with converting everyone into the org..you seem pre-occupied with converting everyone into heaven.
Ah, so now you presume to judge me and what is in my heart and mind? You don’t know me Eden, so don’t make that assumption. I have immediate family who are Jehovah’s Witnesses, I do not shun them, my children are not consecrated, I do “beat” heaven into them. They know the Truth, they know the reason for “gathering out a people for his name.” If they decide in later years that they wish to consecrate fine, if not, they will receive restitution blessings.
As to converting people to heaven? Far from it, I preach the Gospel, we have a couple who has been coming to our studies for the past 3 years or so. He consecrated, and partakes of the memorial emblems, she has not and does not partake. She comments at the meetings, helps in the Sunday school, lends a hand our convention activities, she comes to our home gatherings. We realize that consecration is not for everyone. “Many are called and few are chosen.” Whether I or anyone other Bible Student will be among that chosen group, is in His hands. I know one thing, whatever my lot in life, it will be more than I deserve by the Grace of God.
Eden: Lots of time non-JW family members, co-workers and ect...grow exasperated and annoyed with JW's and their agressive fundamentalistists ways of constantly pestering everyone to join the organization and wonder why the hell JW's are so agressive on this? The answer is because those in the JW org believe and are taught that those who reject the organization are in danger of Armageddon getting them. Well, RR, you are no longer JW, so ovbiously you no longer fear individuals getting destroyed at Armageddon for simply not agreeing with and embracing the JW 'organization," which IS an improvement..but have you since then come to view Heaven as THEE big grand prize for true Christians and that the paradise earth is some sort of booby-prize..kinda like on that old game show "Let's Make A Deal," and that in your view heaven is like the grand prize and that paradise earth is like being sent home with a year's supply of Turtle Wax.
However, we do not condemn those who reject our message. Consider how many Bible Students there are in the world, compared to the billions on earth. We realize just as when Jesus was on earth, only a little flock followed him, only a select few were given to understand. And if you know anything about Pastor Russell and the Bible Students, you would know that we believe in spirit-begettal in the nominal Churches, meaning we do not believe that the heavenly Church will be made up of ONLY Bible Students.
As to the prize? Well, let’s just say that the Apostle Paul would agree with what THE prize is for Christians;
“Do you not know that those who run in a race all run, but one receives the prize? Run in such a way that you may obtain it. And everyone who competes for the prize is temperate in all things. Now they do it to obtain a perishable crown, but we for an imperishable crown. - 1 Corinthians 9:24, 25
“I press toward the goal for the prize of the upward call of God in Christ Jesus”. - Philippians 3:14
Eden, can you show me a scripture that states that paradise earth is a prize (whether lesser or greater) for the Christian Church? One? Will you at least admit and Lord knows how many times I have asked, that there is not one scripture that relegates those who follow Jesus in the narrow way is anything but heaven? Can you show me one scripture where the New Testament Christians desired to live on a paradise earth? Can you show me one scriptures where the apostles even preaches a paradise earth for the Church? One?
When you understand what a Christian is … you will be able to answer these questions. Don’t get me wrong, if your desire is to be among those who will inherit the earth, then fine, God bless you!
Eden: Well, YOu may well indeed view paradsie earth as some-sort of half-ass prize..but to restored earth destiny being 'Christians' it IS The Grand Prize.
Re:2 Salvations? - 2005/05/08 16:58RR wrote: Eden, can you show me a scripture that states that paradise earth is a prize (whether lesser or greater) for the Christian Church? One? Will you at least admit and Lord knows how many times I have asked, that there is not one scripture that relegates those who follow Jesus in the narrow way is anything but heaven? Can you show me one scripture where the New Testament Christians desired to live on a paradise earth? Can you show me one scriptures where the apostles even preaches a paradise earth for the Church? One?
Shalom RR.
The promises and blessings held out to Israel were all of a physical nature. Children, cattle, land, health, wealth, peace etc. They were of a physical nature inkeeping with the understanding the Jews had. The Holy Spirit had not been poured out at this point, the Jews would simply not have had the capacity to comprehend unless God showed them as in the caees of Ezekiel and others. Generally, their promises were fleshly because their minds had not been renewed by the spirit. This wasn't a bad thing, it didn't stop them serving God (some of the time) it was simply that the spirit gives birth to the spirit.
Even when Jesus began to preach he still mentioned the Earth, "blessed are the meek etc." Reiterating many of the earlier promises that the Jews would understand. Remember, they were still Jews he was talking to and the spirit had still not been poured out.
Then comes Jesus death anmd no-one knows what the hell is going on. Even these people closest to Jesus could not comprehend what he was doing letting them kill him. Still they were not born again, still they were incapable of discerning by the spirit.
Then comes pentecost and WHAM!!!!! The church explodes. Suddenly, these people understand beyond physical understanding. Their spirits are made alive and every "hope" preached after this to oild and new converts, to Jew and goyim, to man and woman, slave and free, is the hope of heaven, the desire to be with Jesus. Even Paul was torn with wanting to die, to leave the Earth and be with Jesus because he knew it was better. To live is Christ, to die is gain. The earlier Jews couldn't have comprehended such a thing.
Most of the Jews were stumbled because Jesus did not bring the political stability they wanted. He did not rise up and destroy Rome. After Pentecost people started to get the revelation concerning God's plan and Jesus. All thoughts, hopes, desires and focus on the KIngdom moved away from the Earth and to heavenly places.
I agree with you RR, no scripture offers "paradise Earth" once the Spirit arrives and makes things clearer.
Shalom.
| | The topic has been locked.
RR
User Expert Boarder
Posts: 24
Re:2 Salvations? - 2005/05/08 17:13Warrior I agree ... restitution blessing on earth was always to the Jews first, they were the blesser nation, and through them all the nations would be bless. When Jesus arrived, he reminded them of those promises, but he came for a reason, to gather those who would be a part of the ruling body of that kingdom, that is why the Church was called. Yes, many were confused, however as you stated, when pentecost came, they fully understand what their mission was. However, the question still stands, what hope for the Christian church? What was their goal and where were they to reign?
RR
| | The topic has been locked.
BeachOfEden
User Platinum Boarder
Posts: 70
Re:2 Salvations? - 2005/05/08 18:56It is indeed true that Bible Students do NOT claim those who disagree with them will be doomed to Armageddon, as the JW org does and yes I agree that this is much improvement over JW..but still, to keep calling or labeling those who discribe 'their' desire as "UnChristian"...is not kind..it is little better than when JW's call others "wordly" or when Protestants call others "heathens." In other words..it's like calling a black person the "N" word.
Even though I may disagree with trintarians..even so..I still don;t call them such names. Second there is causes much confusion when Bible Students constantly refer to the heavenly called ones as "The Church," because even though Russell may have indeed used this phrase back in the day...people today think "church" simply means those who merely attend a church building or embrace the discription of "Christian."
As for me..I am not trying nor do I have any desire to try and talk anyone out of their heavenly desire and into my earthly one and I only hope the same can be said in reverse from those on the flip side..as for the Bible never using "hope" in connection to the discription of the new earth or paradise...well, neither was the name Bible Students in the Bible..there are alot of words and discriptions we use now that are not in the Bible..how does this in itself make using such words wrong? Thirdly, why the need to elevate one 'desire' over another? Why is the need to compare one to the other? Why the need to make those who embrace the restored earth desire feel that their desire is inferior? Why not live and let live?
Forum 
