Re:Jw Reform From WithIn Or Out? - 2005/07/29 07:25Let me share my thoughts with you on all this. I walked away from the JW org because mainly of it's creature worship of the org aka a body of imperfect men called the Society. But for me it was the non-trinity God concept and the paradise earth hope that was appealing to me. The difference is NOW I realize that "The Organization" does NOT hold all the copy rights to these '2' beliefs. Both JW's AND Bible Students rose from Russell. But the main problem with BOTH JW's AND Bible Students is they BOTH creature worship. JW's creature worship their imperfect body of old men known as "The Organization", and the Bible Students creature worship the late Charlse T.Russell.
The problem with both of these of they creature worship either one human or a board or humans as thee "Channel" to Jah. And THEE ONLY channel and meditor to Jah is Christ. They put too much focus on their leader or leaderS. This is commom problem with religious groups that are fundamentalist in nature. When Jesus departed from the disciples he told them, "I will leave you a helper." And what was this "HELPER"? Holy Spirit. NOT 'A MAN" or a BODY of MEN. Thus if we have Holy Spirit and we have Jesus as our meditor to Jah. What else do we need?
Anyways, this is my thought on all this.
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ablebodiedman
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Re:Jw Reform From WithIn Or Out? - 2005/07/29 07:39Donbodo,
I agree that the Christian scriptures are for the anointed, but this is not the same thing as saying that prophecies that have already been fulfilled necessarily must be fufilled again (and again). Yes, some of the early Christians remarked that prophecies of the Hebrew Scriptures were being fulfilled again in their own time, but we have to ask two questions: 1) does this give us the right to do the same with every prophecy that was ever uttered? and 2) were they being literalist about it? (in other words, did they really think that the prophets were prophesying about them
1) does this give us the right to do the same with every prophecy that was ever uttered?
According to the scriptures themselves?
YES!
Romans 15:4
4 For all the things that were written aforetime were written for our instruction, that through our endurance and through the comfort from the Scriptures we might have hope.
1 Corinthians 14
39 Consequently, my brothers, keep zealously seeking the prophesying,
2) were they being literalist about it? (in other words, did they really think that the prophets were prophesying about them
Jesus himself told them that the prophets were prophesying about them.
If they believed Jesus (and most people didn't) then they really did think the prophets were prophesying about them.
Luke 21:22 22 because these are days for meting out justice, that all the things written may be fulfilled.
I have discerned that the following very old prophecy is about to have a fullfilment on the evil slave/man of lawlessness:
Deuteronomy 32:35
35 Vengeance is mine, and retribution. At the appointed time their foot will move unsteadily,For the day of their disaster is near,And the events in readiness for them do make haste.’
Believing what the bible says in regards to prophecy and the posts I have made here gives me courage to continue and a great deal of comfort.
Why should I be selfish about these things and enjoy the benefits alone when I could share them with others?
I truly hope that you will also benefit.
regards
ablebodiedman
Post edited by: ablebodiedman, at: 2005/07/29 14:01
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donbodo
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Re:Jw Reform From WithIn Or Out? - 2005/07/29 17:22ablebodiedman,
When you quote Rom. 15:4, you seem to be reading:
"For all the things that were written aforetime were written as prophecies for our own time, that through our endurance and through the comfort from the Scriptures we might have hope."
But that is not what it says. It says "for our instruction." Do you think that only prophecies instruct?
And you take 1 Cor. 14:29 out of context. Paul is talking about prophesying at Christian meetings.
Finally, when you quote Luke 21:22, you don't seem to be taking into account the Scripture meaning of "fulfill."
I understand that this conversation has gotten off topic and that you just wanted to say something nice about the reform movement. I do appreciate that.
Donbodo
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ablebodiedman
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Re:Jw Reform From WithIn Or Out? - 2005/07/30 06:31Donbodo,
When you quote Rom. 15:4, you seem to be reading:
"For all the things that were written aforetime were written as prophecies for our own time, that through our endurance and through the comfort from the Scriptures we might have hope."
But that is not what it says. It says "for our instruction." Do you think that only prophecies instruct?
If a prophecy was written a long time ago it 's intention is to aid people living in the future. If things written a long time ago were for the instrucion of people living in the future the things written a long time ago are indeed prophecies intended for us.
Of all those people who have lived on the earth the ones who need the most help, comfort and instruct are the ones living during the final days. I believe that we are presently living in those final days and therfore the entire bible was written for us.
And you take 1 Cor. 14:29 out of context. Paul is talking about prophesying at Christian meetings.
The first century christians were admonished to zealously prophecy. Those prophecies being uttered were for the benefit of people living in the future not in the first century. We are the ones living in that future who are expected to benefit from their prophesying. Therefore the context fits perfectly.
Finally, when you quote Luke 21:22, you don't seem to be taking into account the Scripture meaning of "fulfill."
Here is the scripture again with some more of the context:
Luke 21:22
22 because these are days for meting out justice, that all the things written may be fulfilled. 23 Woe to the pregnant women and the ones suckling a baby in those days! For there will be great necessity upon the land and wrath on this people; 24 and they will fall by the edge of the sword and be led captive into all the nations; and Jerusalem will be trampled on by the nations, until the appointed times of the nations are fulfilled.
25 “Also, there will be signs in sun and moon and stars, and on the earth anguish of nations, not knowing the way out because of the roaring of the sea and [its] agitation, 26 while men become faint out of fear and expectation of the things coming upon the inhabited earth; for the powers of the heavens will be shaken. 27 And then they will see the Son of man coming in a cloud with power and great glory. 28 But as these things start to occur, raise yourselves erect and lift YOUR heads up, because YOUR deliverance is getting near.”
Jesus is mentioning things already written which are soon to be fulfilled some of these were fulfilled in 70ad when Jerusalem was destroyed by the Romans however, Jesus goes on to include prophecy already written which we ourselves should be carefully watching for. Luke wrote these things down in the first century for some one living in the future........ Us.
The trampling of Jerusalem.
Appointed times of the nations.
Signs in sun moon and stars.
Isaiah himself asked Jehovah "how long" his prophecies would be valid.
Jehovah's answer indicates that Isaiah's prophecy is valid right to the end:
Isaiah 6
‘Hear again and again, O men, but do not understand; and see again and again, but do not get any knowledge.’ 10 Make the heart of this people unreceptive, and make their very ears unresponsive, and paste their very eyes together, that they may not see with their eyes and with their ears they may not hear, and that their own heart may not understand and that they may not actually turn back and get healing for themselves.”
11 At this I said: “How long, O Jehovah?” Then he said: “Until the cities actually crash in ruins, to be without an inhabitant, and the houses be without earthling man, and the ground itself is ruined into a desolation; 12 and Jehovah actually removes earthling men far away, and the deserted condition does become very extensive in the midst of the land. 13 And there will still be in it a tenth, and it must again become something for burning down, like a big tree and like a massive tree in which, when there is a cutting down [of them], there is a stump; a holy seed will be the stump of it.
regards
ablebodiedman
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ablebodiedman
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Re:Jw Reform From WithIn Or Out? - 2005/07/30 07:56BeachOfEden wrote: Let me share my thoughts with you on all this. I walked away from the JW org because mainly of it's creature worship of the org aka a body of imperfect men called the Society. But for me it was the non-trinity God concept and the paradise earth hope that was appealing to me. The difference is NOW I realize that "The Organization" does NOT hold all the copy rights to these '2' beliefs. Both JW's AND Bible Students rose from Russell. But the main problem with BOTH JW's AND Bible Students is they BOTH creature worship. JW's creature worship their imperfect body of old men known as "The Organization", and the Bible Students creature worship the late Charlse T.Russell.
Anyways, this is my thought on all this.
BeachofEden,
It was at a convention three years ago when the speaker announced to a crowd of about 10,000; " brothers how do you feel about the wonderful spiritual food the faithfull and discrete slave has prepared for you today?". There was a thunderous applause however, I was dismayed and confused at the response. Why was a group of men being given veneration without any glory being given to Jesus or Jehovah? I think I may have been the only one who did not applause. Was there something wrong with just me or were these other 10,000 people wrong? It was a very lonely feeling. I wondered at that time wether I hade given applause to similar statements in the past and felt that I had. I made an agreement with myself that I would not venerate a group of men in this way again and resolved to prayerfully find answers to my new found and very unsettling perception.
It makes me happy and gives me comfort and relief to find there are indeed a very few in this internet wilderness who have come to similar conclusions.
The problem with both of these of they creature worship either one human or a board or humans as thee "Channel" to Jah. And THEE ONLY channel and meditor to Jah is Christ. They put too much focus on their leader or leaderS. This is commom problem with religious groups that are fundamentalist in nature. When Jesus departed from the disciples he told them, "I will leave you a helper." And what was this "HELPER"? Holy Spirit. NOT 'A MAN" or a BODY of MEN. Thus if we have Holy Spirit and we have Jesus as our meditor to Jah. What else do we need?
This statement hits the nail on the head.
Do we really need one central organization in order to serve God properly and be in subjection to his king our Lord Jesus Christ?
The following scriptures indicate that we do not need a central body in order to get instruction directly from our King:
John 14:14
12 Most truly I say to YOU, He that exercises faith in me, that one also will do the works that I do; and he will do works greater than these, because I am going my way to the Father. 13 Also, whatever it is that YOU ask in my name, I will do this, in order that the Father may be glorified in connection with the Son. 14 If YOU ask anything in my name, I will do it.
Matthew 18 18 “Truly I say to YOU men, Whatever things YOU may bind on earth will be things bound in heaven, and whatever things YOU may loose on earth will be things loosed in heaven. 19 Again I truly say to YOU, If two of YOU on earth agree concerning anything of importance that they should request, it will take place for them due to my Father in heaven. 20 For where there are two or three gathered together in my name, there I am in their midst.”
I hope you might now agree that in this forum we are now gathered together.
It would help a great deal if we understood what we should be asking for.
If Jesus will do what we ask him for then it should be something important.
I would like to know what you think we should be asking for keeping in mind that Jesus is now in our midst.
So........ what should we ask for?
regards
ablebodiedman
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donbodo
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Re:Jw Reform From WithIn Or Out? - 2005/07/31 03:41ablebodiedman,
You said: "If things written a long time ago were for the instrucion of people living in the future the things written a long time ago are indeed prophecies intended for us."
You speak as if there are only two times in history--a past and a future. We live in the future, and the prophecies were written in the past FOR the future.
But time is not like that. There are many points along the timeline.
If a prophecy is uttered in the past, and then comes true somewhere down the line prior to our own time, then both prophecy and fulfillment are past.
You also argue that, since we, of all people in human history, need the most help, then the prophecies MUST have been written for us. This makes two assumptions: 1) we are the most needy of any people ever to live, including the ancient Israelites and the early Christians; 2) the only way to help people is through prophecies.
I don't think those two points are necessarily true, and you haven't provided any evidence to establish them.
In regard to 1 Cor. 14:29, you assume that the prophets were making predictions about the last days when they prophesied in the congregation. How do you know this? Also, prophets do more than make predictions. In fact, 90% of the books of the prophets in the Hebrew Scriptures are not predictions, but admonitions. Moreoever, as Paul says in Rom. 15:4, the things written aforetime were written for "our instruction." Who was he talking to? The people in the congregation of HIS DAY.
I concede the point about Luke 21:22. Some might say that, since all of the words of that chapter were fulfilled in the first century, they don't see any reason to believe they will be fulfilled a second time. I simply want to point out that your comments were about 2 Thessalonians, not Luke 21.
Finally, the end referred to in Isaiah is the end of Jerusalem.
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