The Temple and the conclusion - 2005/02/03 15:27This is a continuation of a conversation with Eden based on my blog - More on the Temple and conclusion.
Eden said
Thanks Epig, it's great to have some 'fat to chew'! I have some questions though: First century harvest? Hmm, while it seems reasonable there was a 'cut off' so to speak, (in-line with the reasons you gave) I don't think we should call it a harvest; to my knowledge, the angels did-not come and take the wicked out from among the kingdom, at that point - infact it seems it was the other way round, the wicked were the only ones left.
Another interesting thought too, the temple that was destroyed in 70, was not the original temple Solomon built, so could a reasonable parallel be drawn between the origianl Christian temple (namely, Jesus and the faithful apostles and disciples) and Solomon's temple [which BTW had Jehovah's smoke and fire] and the re-built 1st century temple, with it's apostate system and the Christian congregation today, with it's apostate systems?
Did that make any sense?? :grin
Eden can I focus first on the the Temple comparisons. I think you are onto something in regards to the Temple comparisons between the 1st century and Solomon's one on the one-hand and the Christian cong today and its apostate systems. (I think that is the comaprison you are making?)
What I find interesting is that the Jews who were building the second temple were kinda worried about this temple. (see Haggai 2:3) There was no ark, no shekinah light and certainly not the same level of grandeur with this one. Yet Haggai pointed out in 2:9 that the glory of this house would be greater. In verse 7 he pointed out that he was going to "rock the nations".
Now at this point I would note that NWT says " and the desireable things of all the nations must come in". I think that translation does not make sense as it stands especially when you use NWTs own cross-reference in Heb 12:27 which signifies a shaking out of things, not a bringing in.
Other translations talk about the desireable thing coming in - or the desire of the nations. That clearly is the Messiah. When you think about it, this set of verses is a Messianic prophecy yet NWT mentions everything bar the Messiah!
Anyway, my point here is that the later temple was going to see the desireable thing come in. This was true of the 1st century despite the apostate system that had grown up by then.
So how might that apply today if at all. For sure there is an apostate system operating in respect of the Christian values Jesus espoused. But what constitutes the Temple and how did it become the Temple?
If there was not a harvest in the first century or at least some sort of close-off, what was the mechanism for establishing the Temple, especially when in Zechariah we are told "sprout" or "branch"will build the temple and that that Zerubbabel would build its foundation. (see Zech 4:9, and 6:13.)
So who were these characters in the first century and who might they be now if anyone? Certainly in the first century you could say Jesus was "sprout". But who was Zerubbabel. Given what is said in Haggai 2:9 and 2:20-23 it seems that Zerubbabel has a role in the future when this rocking of the nations take place.
It seems to me that future is now and not the 1st century. So, when was that foundation laid for the temple, when was it completed, when was the headstone brought forth etc?
More and more questions - hope you can help here Eden
Much love and spirit
ePig
Knowledge puffs up, but love builds up. If anyone thinks he has acquired knowledge of something, he does not yet know it just as he ought to know it. But if anyone loves God, this one is known by him - 1 Cor 8:1-3
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Eden
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Posts: 195
Re:The Temple and the conclusion - 2005/02/03 20:45Thanks Epig!! There sure is alot to consider in all this, can we tackle it one point at a time? For me, it seems a good question to start with is 'What is the temple?' (I am assuming we agree there is a future fulfillment of Jesus' words regarding the temple in Matt 24, Luke 21 and Mark 13)
In considering a future fulfillment of these things and determining what the temple would represent in that future event, Ephesians 2:19-22 springs to mind, it reads, "19Consequently, you are no longer foreigners and aliens, but fellow citizens with God's people and members of God's household, 20built on the foundation of the apostles and prophets, with Christ Jesus himself as the chief cornerstone. 21In him the whole building is joined together and rises to become a holy temple in the Lord. 22And in him you too are being built together to become a dwelling in which God lives by his Spirit." This seems to very clearly explain what the temple is; it is the Christian congregation. The foundation is the prophets and apostles - with Jesus at the chief corner. This even has personal application when we compare Pauls words in 1 Cor 6:18-20, "18Flee from sexual immorality. All other sins a man commits are outside his body, but he who sins sexually sins against his own body. 19Do you not know that your body is a temple of the Holy Spirit, who is in you, whom you have received from God? You are not your own; 20you were bought at a price. Therefore honor God with your body."
With this in mind, on an idividual level, our own hearts are the Holy place of our body or temple - and we must be on the watch for 'disgusting things' infecting our 'holy place' such as idolatry.
So anyway, I am fairly convinced the 'temple' at the conclusion is the Christian Congregation and the foundation of this temple is the same foundation laid in the first century, Jesus, the apostles and the prophets - I would love to hear other thoughts though - this being said, the next question is has there been an unbroken line from the first century til now or does today's temple have a beginning of it's own?
Post edited by: Eden, at: 2005/02/03 20:49
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Epignossis
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Posts: 151
Re:The Temple and the conclusion - 2005/02/08 18:53Thanks Eden for your comments - they are very helpful in understanding what the temple is and this was certainly my understanding too.
There are these thoughts however which make the issue for me perplexing.
In Haggai 1:7 we read about Jehovah rocking the heavens and the earth. As explained elsewhere I believe that this is shaking things out not bringing them in. This is borne out by the cross reference to Heb 12:26, and 27 where Haggai is quoted.
This also suggests that the desireable thing (as in Messiah) comes in, not the desireable things. We believe this to be a prophecy for the future beyond the first century. If that is so then we read again in Haggai 2:20-22 telling Zerubbabel that Jehovah would rock the heavens and the earth. Presumably this would be by some future Zerubbabel.
Later in Zechariah 2:8-10 we read about Zerubbabel being the one to lay the foundation of the temple and to complete it and also to bring forth the headstone, or capstone. Again the context would appear to be future especially when you consider Rev 11:2 and the two witnesses who seem to have been prefigured by Zerubbabel and Joshua in Zechariah 2:11-14.
We also have the actions of "sprout" or "branch" given in Zechariah 6:9-15. So we are again left with the conclusion that this is future in our time.
If that is so, then a foundation is to be laid as well as a temple in the future.
So we again get this question. If there is indeed a future foundation and future temple and a temple which is thrown down, when was that foundation laid, when is the temple established and when is it thrown down. These are still the questions perplexing me from my blog entry.
Hope you can add help on this Eden. I am sure you will be able to add something valuable to our understanding.
Much love and spirit
ePig
Post edited by: admin, at: 2005/02/08 19:05Knowledge puffs up, but love builds up. If anyone thinks he has acquired knowledge of something, he does not yet know it just as he ought to know it. But if anyone loves God, this one is known by him - 1 Cor 8:1-3
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