Re:Jw Reform From WithIn Or Out? - 2005/07/31 04:28"It was at a convention three years ago when the speaker announced to a crowd of about 10,000; " brothers how do you feel about the wonderful spiritual food the faithfull and discrete slave has prepared for you today?". There was a thunderous applause however, I was dismayed and confused at the response. Why was a group of men being given veneration without any glory being given to Jesus or Jehovah? I think I may have been the only one who did not applause."
I know PRECISELY what you mean! I think I was the other one there who refuse to clap for this and I wondered the precise same thing! I mean, was so holy or specical about the GB's writtings anyways? Look this site over or my own XJW progressive forum on MySpace and you see alot of quality spiritual food being written. Anybody can make a spirtual newsletter/magazine like the Awake! or WT..and even better.
"Was there something wrong with just me or were these other 10,000 people wrong?"
That IS what I thought. And then I came to conclude that yes, 10,000 CAN be wrong.
"It was a very lonely feeling. I wondered at that time wether I hade given applause to similar statements in the past and felt that I had. I made an agreement with myself that I would not venerate a group of men in this way again and resolved to prayerfully find answers to my new found and very unsettling perception."
When a person first realizes this..that this creature worship of humans IS wrong, and if you are like me, and conclude you must walk away from this...there is a sense of confusion..and there is a trained tendency to try and seek for another "right group". It took me a good couple of years to finally realize that you do NOT 'need' a so-called "right-group". And that the Bible says, "WHERE EVER...'3' or more...are gathered...there I Am also (Jesus).
"It makes me happy and gives me comfort and relief to find there are indeed a very few in this internet wilderness who have come to similar conclusions."
Indeed. I have gathered 11 people on my own MySpace forum.
BeachOfEden:
"The problem with both of these of they creature worship either one human or a board or humans as thee "Channel" to Jah. And THEE ONLY channel and meditor to Jah is Christ. They put too much focus on their leader or leaderS. This is commom problem with religious groups that are fundamentalist in nature. When Jesus departed from the disciples he told them, "I will leave you a helper." And what was this "HELPER"? Holy Spirit. NOT 'A MAN" or a BODY of MEN. Thus if we have Holy Spirit and we have Jesus as our meditor to Jah. What else do we need?"
"This statement hits the nail on the head."
"Do we really need one central organization in order to serve God properly and be in subjection to his king our Lord Jesus Christ?"
Jehovah does NOT "NEED" a collection of imperfect men..rather..THEY 'NEED" him. And that IS what they fail to see.
The following scriptures indicate that we do not need a central body in order to get instruction directly from our King:
John 14:14
12 Most truly I say to YOU, He that exercises faith in me, that one also will do the works that I do; and he will do works greater than these, because I am going my way to the Father. 13 Also, whatever it is that YOU ask in my name, I will do this, in order that the Father may be glorified in connection with the Son. 14 If YOU ask anything in my name, I will do it.
Matthew 18 18 “Truly I say to YOU men, Whatever things YOU may bind on earth will be things bound in heaven, and whatever things YOU may loose on earth will be things loosed in heaven. 19 Again I truly say to YOU, If two of YOU on earth agree concerning anything of importance that they should request, it will take place for them due to my Father in heaven. 20 For where there are two or three gathered together in my name, there I am in their midst.”
I hope you might now agree that in this forum we are now gathered together.
It would help a great deal if we understood what we should be asking for.
If Jesus will do what we ask him for then it should be something important.
I would like to know what you think we should be asking for keeping in mind that Jesus is now in our midst.
So........ what should we ask for?
Guildance From Holy Spirit.
NOT 'A Man' Nor... "body of MEN'..JUST The Holy Spirit.
PS. There OTHER issues I find seriously WRONG with BOTH JW and Bible Students..but they are based on their imperfect man-made ideas rather than theology...Though i suppose one CAN and sometimes DOES gets made into the other. I will discuss these isues in a new seperate thread intitled, "JW & Bible Students- Pros & Cons."
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ablebodiedman
User Platinum Boarder
Posts: 353
Re:Jw Reform From WithIn Or Out? - 2005/07/31 07:30BeachOfEden wrote: "Was there something wrong with just me or were these other 10,000 people wrong?"
That IS what I thought. And then I came to conclude that yes, 10,000 CAN be wrong.
BeachofEden,
It was this perception which led me to inspect the scriptures with regard to prohecy being literally fulfilled in our day. If I was right and the other 10,000 were wrong then there really should be some mention in scripture (prophecy) which would give me some comfort.
For instance these questions now needed an answer:
After all the things we have learned about idol worship here I was standing amoungt 10,000 people who seemed to get much pleasure from worshipping idols (the FDS) instead of Jehovah.
How could these 10,000 people be deceived or deluded and yet I was not?
Could it really be that God's Name People would operate like this?
Why would Jehovah God allow it to continue for so long?
All the above questions were prayerfully answered through the scriptures.
Now that I have found some people who have made the same discernments I feel comfortable making the following application of scripture which will infuriate some and bring comfort to others.
In fact the scriptures show there would be a time near the end when two kinds of people exist in God's Organization.
1/ Those who are deceived:
2Thessalonians 2
10 and with every unrighteous deception for those who are perishing, as a retribution because they did not accept the love of the truth that they might be saved. 11 So that is why God lets an operation of error go to them, that they may get to believing the lie, 12 in order that they all may be judged because they did not believe the truth but took pleasure in unrighteousness.
2/ Those who have faith in the truth
2Thessalonians 2
13 However, we are obligated to thank God always for YOU, brothers loved by Jehovah, because God selected YOU from [the] beginning for salvation by sanctifying YOU with spirit and by YOUR faith in the truth. 14 To this very destiny he called YOU through the good news we declare, for the purpose of acquiring the glory of our Lord Jesus Christ. 15 So, then, brothers, stand firm and maintain YOUR hold on the traditions that YOU were taught, whether it was through a verbal message or through a letter of ours. 16 Moreover, may our Lord Jesus Christ himself and God our Father, who loved us and gave everlasting comfort and good hope by means of undeserved kindness, 17 comfort YOUR hearts and make YOU firm in every good deed and word.
It was these perceptions which also prayerfully led me to revealing the "man of lawlessness" through the use of prophetic scriptures. I hope everone has read the article "The Man of Lawlessness is Revealed" which can be found on this web site.
The article reveals that the man of lawlessness is actually also the same as the evil slave mentioned in Matthew. The evil slave are the seed sown by Satan and are acting as his puppets.
The evil slave are the reason why so many meek ones who were initially and sincerely convinced this was God's Organization have been brokenhearted. I am convinced that amoungst those 10,000 people are some truly sincere and righteous people who are presently held captive and are prisoners of the evil slave. In this internet wilderness I have met many people like Donbodo who are mourning over Zion. Certainly Jehovah will eventually avenge the situation and the defamation it brings to his own name.
Certainly those people who have faith in the truth and have not been deceived need to find those sincere ones and release them from captivity.
Now I will once again make an application of an old prophetic scripture which is just now starting to be literally fulfilled:
Isaiah 61
1 The spirit of the Sovereign Lord Jehovah is upon me, for the reason that Jehovah has anointed me to tell good news to the meek ones. He has sent me to bind up the brokenhearted, to proclaim liberty to those taken captive and the wide opening [of the eyes] even to the prisoners; 2 to proclaim the year of goodwill on the part of Jehovah and the day of vengeance on the part of our God; to comfort all the mourning ones; 3 to assign to those mourning over Zion, to give them a headdress instead of ashes, the oil of exultation instead of mourning, the mantle of praise instead of the downhearted spirit; and they must be called big trees of righteousness, the planting of Jehovah, for [him] to be beautified.
regards
ablebodiedman
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BeachOfEden
User Platinum Boarder
Posts: 70
Re:Jw Reform From WithIn Or Out? - 2005/07/31 10:53"Why would Jehovah God allow it to continue for so long?"
I guess the same reason why God allows Bush to be president. I guess the key thing here is to realize there's a 'difference' between God 'allowing' someone verses God actually blessing something
In fact the scriptures show there would be a time near the end when two kinds of people exist in God's Organization.
1/ Those who are deceived:
(Org worshipping JW fundamentalists)
2Thessalonians 2
"10 and with every unrighteous deception for those who are perishing, as a retribution because they did not accept the love of the truth that they might be saved. 11 So that is why God lets an operation of error go to them, that they may get to believing the lie, 12 in order that they all may be judged because they did not believe the truth but took pleasure in unrighteousness."
The same with the pharisees back in Jesus day who were also fundamental extremists.
2/ Those who have faith in the truth:
Progressive-minded individuals (3 or more gathered) who are Progressive Christian for Jah.
2Thessalonians 2
13 However, we are obligated to thank God always for YOU, brothers loved by Jehovah, because God selected YOU from [the] beginning for salvation by sanctifying YOU with spirit and by YOUR faith in the truth. 14 To this very destiny he called YOU through the good news we declare, for the purpose of acquiring the glory of our Lord Jesus Christ.-"
"It was these perceptions which also prayerfully led me to revealing the "man of lawlessness" through the use of prophetic scriptures. I hope everone has read the article "The Man of Lawlessness is Revealed" which can be found on this web site."
I will check it out. Thanks for the tip.
"The article reveals that the man of lawlessness is actually also the same as the evil slave mentioned in Matthew. The evil slave are the seed sown by Satan and are acting as his puppets."
Does this refer to religions as well as man's political systems? Just curious.
"The evil slave are the reason why so many meek ones who were initially and sincerely convinced this was God's Organization have been brokenhearted. I am convinced that amoungst those 10,000 people are some truly sincere and righteous people who are presently held captive and are prisoners of the evil slave. In this internet wilderness I have met many people like Donbodo who are mourning over Zion. Certainly Jehovah will eventually avenge the situation and the defamation it brings to his own name. "
"Certainly those people who have faith in the truth and have not been deceived need to find those sincere ones and release them from captivity."
To do this they need to face there fear of man...aka "The organization".
Now I will once again make an application of an old prophetic scripture which is just now starting to be literally fulfilled:
Isaiah 61
"1 The spirit of the Sovereign Lord Jehovah is upon me, for the reason that Jehovah has anointed me to tell good news to the meek ones. He has sent me to bind up the brokenhearted, to proclaim liberty to those taken captive and the wide opening [of the eyes] even to the prisoners; 2 to proclaim the year of goodwill on the part of Jehovah and the day of vengeance on the part of our God; to comfort all the mourning ones; 3 to assign to those mourning over Zion, to give them a headdress instead of ashes, the oil of exultation instead of mourning, the mantle of praise instead of the downhearted spirit; and they must be called big trees of righteousness, the planting of Jehovah, for [him] to be beautified."
And these are individuals aka 3 or more gathered not a special board who lord it over others as spiritual cops.
PS> Check out my other new thread intitled, "JWS & Bible Students- Pros & Cons"....and tell me what you think.
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Alex25
User Fresh Boarder
Posts: 2
Re:Jw Reform From WithIn Or Out? - 2006/12/15 03:37I think reform will be OUT. Jehovah will do it.
Compare the verse
"...The Awful Horror will be placed on the highest point of the Tample and will remain there until the one who put it there meets the end which God has prepared for him". (Dan 9:27, Today English Version).
with our today situation.
It is useful to reflect on the following questions:
1. Is really "Awful Horror" United Nations? (see The Guardian, Oct 8,2001)
2. Is GB "highest point of the Tample"?
3. Who put it there?
4. Who has prepared the end?
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donbodo
User Platinum Boarder
Posts: 125
Re:Jw Reform From WithIn Or Out? - 2006/12/15 10:34Dear Alex,
Not sure what you are getting at, but I think it's pretty clear from Luke 21:20 that Dan. 9:27 was fulfilled when the Romans attacked Jerusalem.
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