Wacko interpretation of the week - 2005/10/06 11:53Thie following is from Don Burney's (self-proclaimed Messiah for JW's) livingwaters forum. It's a classic example of eisegesistic replacement theology at it's most extreme (rivalling Ablebodiedman). Interestingly it applies the third of the stars mentioned in Rev 12 to elders in the organisation who want reform. Posted for your general amusement:
REVELATION 12 & JEHOVAH'S WITNESSES IN BIBLE PROPHECY
(Revelation 12:1-5) And a great sign was seen in heaven, a woman arrayed with the sun, and the moon was beneath her feet, and on her head was a crown of twelve stars, and she was pregnant. And she cries out in her pains and in her agony to give birth. And another sign was seen in heaven, and, look! a great fiery-colored dragon, with seven heads and ten horns and upon its heads seven diadems; and its tail drags a third of the stars of heaven, and it hurled them down to the earth. And the dragon kept standing before the woman who was about to give birth, that, when she did give birth, it might devour her child. And she gave birth to a son, a male, who is to shepherd all the nations with an iron rod. And her child was caught away to God and to his throne.
Verse-by-Verse Commentary from the YORWW Congregation:
Verse 1 of chapter 12 of the book of Revelation shown above speaks of a “great sign” being seen in “heaven.” In this instance, the “heaven” spoken of would picture the YORWW Congregation Arrangement, who are the only people on earth that correctly understand the events, as they occur within the organization of Jehovah’s witnesses on earth. In the mysterious vision, the “12-star Crown” that is upon the “woman’s” head shows her to represent the “12 tribes” of Israel on earth, even as the “12 stars” in Joseph's dream pictured the same. (Genesis 37:9) The “crown” on the “woman” head also shows the “regal” status enjoyed by the “woman” who enjoys a heaven-high standing with God as God's Chosen Name People. Also, she is seen as arrayed with the “sun” at the head and the “moon” at her feet. In this case, the “sun” and “moon” picture the Governing Body and Watchtower Society entities respectively, as they provide “light” or enlightenment for this “crowned” woman, a “luminary” for the day, and a “luminary” for the night. (Genesis 1:16, 17) This way, she appeared to be in constant “light,” or enlightenment, as we would expect from a Temple-Arrangement from Jehovah God. However to the contrary, God's prophetic word shows in the end, her “sun” will not give its expected light, and her “moon” will fail her and not give her much needed “light” either. No, they will not, since they will prove to be false “luminaries” who give false light, not true light from Jehovah. Therefore, she will one day have to learn to lean on Jehovah, for true light. Yes, Jehovah must one day, become her true light. Amen! -- See Isaiah 60:19, 20.
Verse 2 show the “woman,” God’s woman is “pregnant” and she cries out in her “pains” and “agony” to give birth to the “Male Child.” Indeed, Jehovah God has caused these “pains” and “agony” for the woman to give birth to His Son, the “Male Child.” These “pains” and “agony” associated with the “birth” are the troublesome times ahead for the Watchtower Society, especially with many reformed-minded ones taking a stand against the leadership of Jehovah’s witnesses at the kingdom halls around the world. All of this will seem to be a great mystery to the “woman” herself, since she will not fully understand the actual need for such reform “issues” that must be settled for the sake of righteousness. At the center of these reform “issues” will be heinous activity of the Governing Body becoming NGO Supporters of the United Nations Organization, in secret, for some 10 years.
Verse 3 shows the wicked “dragon” to be “fiery-colored.” He is shown to be “fiery-colored” because he has become the instigator of a “Great War,” as spoken in the book of Daniel as being the foretold conflict of the “king of north” against the “king of the south.” (Daniel 10:1; 11th chapter NIV) In this instance, the “fiery-colored” dragon reminds us of the “2nd Seal” spoken of in Revelation 6th chapter. Clearly, in this instance the “fiery-colored” (Red colored) Horse and its rider picture warfare, global warfare even, showing all during the time the Jehovah’s witnesses organization is going through these major upheavals of change and difficulty, there will be Great War being engaged in by the world in general.
Verse 4 shows us, the “tail” of the “dragon” being used to “drag” and “thrown down” heavenly “stars” that decorate the woman’s presence. This “tail” picture the point of strength of Satan, just as a literal dragon-like creature uses their “tail” as a weapon to sling their prey around or dash them to pieces in a death blow hit. In this instance, the “tail” like instrument pictures the Governing Body of Jehovah’s witnesses, that Satan fully controls, as the “man of lawlessness.” This particular instrument under Satan’s control, namely the Governing Body will “thrown down” one-third of the “stars” who picture the elder body among Jehovah’s witnesses. No doubt, these “stars” or elders will be disciplined by the Governing Body because of the reform ideas and activities entertained by these “elders” who are quite dissatisfied by the recent decisions being made by the Governing Body themselves. These “stars” or “elders” simply can’t see themselves supporting the Governing Body and their decisions of recent, for the direction of the congregations of Jehovah’s witnesses. Because of this “throwing down” action of the Governing Body upon these particular reform-minded “elders” or “stars,” these individuals will lose their positions of oversight with the congregations of Jehovah’s witnesses. This particular “sign” as seen in “heaven” will be fully anticipated and expected by those who are part of the YORWW “Intimate Group” Prophetic Association. – Jeremiah 23:18, 22
Verse 5 shows the “Male Child” is born. These are shown to one day, “shepherd the nations with an iron rod” as official representatives of God’s Government and Kingdom on earth. (Matthew 6:10) These are the first to leave the Watchtower Society, the first to fully recognize that “reform” efforts are futile in God’s Eyes for the Jehovah’s witnesses as an organization. These are also called, the “Tents of Judah,” since they are “saved first” by God Himself. (Zechariah 12:7) Yes, the Watchtower Society and its Governing Body are now completely passed any point of repentance before God. The “Male Child” group and can clearly see this, and so they leave the apostate organization of Jehovah’s witnesses behind. They are not willing to join the YORWW Arrangement, as God’s newly revealed, Beacon of Light for all who wish to please Jehovah. They now join the YORWW Arrangement, because they recognize it, as the Earthly Kingdom of God. _________________ "He that is from God listens to the sayings of God..." -- John 8:47
Post edited by: Wuji, at: 2005/10/06 11:54
Post edited by: Wuji, at: 2005/10/06 11:57
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MADMARY1
User Gold Boarder
Posts: 41
Re:Wacko interpretation of the week - 2005/10/07 07:43Simon,
You forgot to put the link up for this article. Here it is:
Re:Wacko interpretation of the week - 2005/10/07 09:08But Joseph didn't see TWELVE stars bowing to him, he saw only ELEVEN.....so if this is to be the Woman's crown, then where is this missing star?
And where is the biblical connection that any of this applies to YORWW, The Governing Body, or any of that?
ANYONE can say this-and-that means thus-and-so....and we're supposed to just swallow it without question? There's something wrong with that.
Besides, where does it say in the bible that only one group of people get to know the truth? The bible was FULL of examples of non-Israelites receiving the blessings of Jehovah:
1 - Job was from the land of Uz within Edom (Job 1:1, Lamentations 4:21 ), which was outside the land of Canaan (the land promised for Israel). Job was blessed even though he wasn't an Israelite.
2 - Rahab was a prostitute in Jericho (Joshua 2:1 ). She wasn't an Israelite, and was still blessed for her faithfulness. After saving them she didn't become an Israelite as she and her family were set up outside the camp of Israel (Joshua 6:23).
3 - The Gibeonites This group of people showed full faith in Jehovah and thus weren't destroyed when the Israelites took the land of Canaan (Joshua 9:15), the bible states the Gibeonites were NOT of Israel (2 Samuel 21:2).
These are but a few of many examples that show Jehovah blesses ANYONE who shows faithfulness to Him, not just a particular group. Therefore, the YORWW claim to exclusive priviledge is in error. To believe otherwise is to say that God really is partial, which goes against scripture (Acts 10:34-35)
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Melancholymuse
Visitor Platinum Boarder
Posts: 72
Re:Wacko interpretation of the week - 2005/10/07 09:09 Double post....oooops!
Post edited by: Melancholymuse, at: 2005/10/07 18:11
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kitty
User Senior Boarder
Posts: 10
Re:Wacko interpretation of the week - 2005/10/07 09:56 Excellent scriptures Tami. If we have learned nothing else it is that Jehovah is not partial. No one is allowed on LivingWaters unless you are in complete agreement with them, even when it goes against the Bible. So why post the site here? Just to read is just a waste of time when you cant show them their errors. Thanks Tami.
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Wuji
Visitor Platinum Boarder
Posts: 53
Re:Wacko interpretation of the week - 2005/10/07 11:28To be fair to Don Burney, he did come up with many fine insights in 'The Report' (published 1994) - albeit many of them evidently inspired by Ray Franz's research found in his book "In Search of Christian Freedom". He could see that the whole 1914 teaching and it's chronology was faulty, that JW's should not feel forced to go from door-to-door, that the Watchtower Society has apparently become greedy, uncharitable, and profligate with all it's vast financial resources, that something is seriously amiss with their blood and shunning policies, etc. But sadly, something seems to have gone awry with him and his group. I guess we can put it down to his self-professed Messiah-ship and belief that he is the literal 'helper' Jesus spoke of and 'the Chieftan' foretold in Ezekiel. When individuals start seeing themselves as a literal fulfilment of scripture the alarm bells should start ringing. Such views are repugnant and indicates Mr Burney has clearly become quite puffed up with knowledge and his own self-importance.
Having said that, his basic premise that JW's are something special in God's eyes based on the fact that they are monotheistic and iconoclastic, just as the Israelites and first century Christians were, is reasonable enough, but he then goes on to add an additional identifying mark by asserting that JW's are THE modern-day Israel because they took on God's name Jehovah in 1931 by means of a convention resolution, and that Jehovah then became obligated to treat them as his name-sake people and from that time on all ancient prophecy yet to find fulfillment applies to JW's. To bolster this, he argues, most unconvincingly, that the use of God's name Jehovah was an important distinguishing characteristic of even the first century Christians!
These premises are almost exactly the same that e-watchman builds his entire foundation of interpretation up from, although remarkably e-watchman in one of his commentary's has said that presently JW's are not God's name people (go figure?). As Phi once said on e-watchman's forum, by denying that JW's are currently Jehovah's name-sake people e-watchman sawed the proverbial branch off that he was sitting on. No one else on his forum seems bothered by it.
I would have to admit that my view of JW's is similar to Don Burney's. Where I differ, however, is that I believe that the anointed sons of God, true spirit-begotten Christians, are presently to be found in any religious group/congregation that is fundamentally monotheistic, iconoclastic, and knows the truth about the human soul and condition of the dead. The foremost identifying mark is that they cry "Abba, Father", (NOTE: not "Abba, YHWH") directing their exclusive devotion and sacred service to the Father only, as Jehovah commanded in the Mosaic law code and that Jesus re-iterated. The holy spirit reveals this truth of all truths to these ones. As Don Burney puts it, the basic sound 'framework of knowledge' (Rom 2) or divine truths that the Israelites first received from Jehovah, that were reinforced by Jesus, and subsequently believed by the 1st century Christian congregations. However, where I disagree with Don Burney is that having the name Jehovah and using it a lot in an organisational setting is also a 'must-have' identifying mark (for reasons previously outlined on this forum).
Therefore, if we are to use this 'framework' of unadulterated scriptural doctrine as the identifying mark for determining where the anointed, 'God's household', may exist in modern times (assuming they do exist today, which I believe is the case), we have to cast our net a bit wider than just the JW's. On the basis of that criteria we thus simply can't exclude The International Bible Students, United Church of God, Biblical Unitarians, and possibly also the Christadelphians from also having spirit-adopted Christians in them who Jehovah will reward with immortal life in heaven. Interestingly, I believe that all these groups are respectful towards the name Jehovah and do not express the disdainful attitude towards it that broader Christendom does. They simply do not see the need to use it so much, and with good reason considering the NT testimony.
This less black-and-white view also harmonises better with the 7 congregations in Revelation, all of whom had the basic core framework of doctrinal truth, but had started to adopt and tolerate sectarianised views on the fringes, just like we see in all of these JW-type groups.
In a nutshell, the 'body of Christ', ie, 'God's household', ie, the spiritualised 'holy nation' mentioned in 1 Pet 2:9, is to be found scattered amongst any religious group that holds to the core teachings of the first century congregations. I believe that the 'wheat' is found in all these groups. So it's my contention that any ancient prophecy as applicable to a modern-day 'spiritual Israel' will have fulfillment on this scattered group of spirit-begotten Christians, not just on one particular organisation that many of them may be in.
Forum 
Double post....oooops! 
Excellent scriptures Tami. If we have learned nothing else it is that Jehovah is not partial. No one is allowed on LivingWaters unless you are in complete agreement with them, even when it goes against the Bible. So why post the site here? Just to read is just a waste of time when you cant show them their errors. Thanks Tami.