Compassion is POWER!!!!!!! - 2005/10/12 07:03Reductio ad absurdum; If we can derive both Psi and Not Psi while assuming the hypothesis Phi, we may infer Not Phi.
(Psi) Godly people believe unconditional compassion for everyone is the ultimate perfection of the human spirit, because it is said to both glorify and reflect the nature of God. To the exent of our expression of unconditional compassion we know we are in union with God.
(Not Psi) Not a single godless person believes in unconditional compassion for everyone.
(Not Phi) Saying godless people have unconditional compassion for everyone is a contradition to their own stated beliefs.
(Phi) Therefore, God is compassion.
Power is inherently intelligent as demonstrated by the maximization of entropy production. Power produces order and continuous development to greater order. Power is eternal and all existence is made of it's substance, energy.
This is the definition of my God.
Therefore compassion is POWER!!!!!!!
God is compassion, God is power, compassion is power. If you have compassion in your heart, you have God in your heart.
Re:Compassion is POWER!!!!!!! - 2005/10/12 14:13Interesting, but seems a bit esoterical, mystical even.
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polemotheos
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Re:Compassion is POWER!!!!!!! - 2005/10/12 18:12Wuji wrote: Interesting, but seems a bit esoterical, mystical even. One day these things will become common knowledge. Everyone will know they are One and have compassion in there hearts. What a paradise that will be.
The key to perfection: Compassion, arises from cognition of God and our at-one-ment;
Re:Compassion is POWER!!!!!!! - 2005/10/15 10:12Spinoza says; For, as the potentiality of existence is a power, it follows that, in proportion as reality increases in the nature of a thing, so also will it increase its strength for existence. Therefore a being absolutely infinite, such as God, has from himself an absolutely infinite power of existence, and hence he does absolutely exist. Perhaps there will be many who will be unable to see the force of this proof, inasmuch as they are accustomed only to consider those things which flow from external causes. Of such things, they see that those which quickly come to pass--that is, quickly come into existence--quickly also disappear; whereas they regard as more difficult of accomplishment--that is, not so easily brought into existence--those things which they conceive as more complicated. Power itself is the transformation of energy. Power produces order and continuous development to greater order. Having proven substance or God exists and has always existed we must surmise an inherent intelligence or consciousness of God. As demonstrated by the maximization of entropy production; God continues to create order and more advanced developments. Some how energy has a conscious awareness of how to develop complex structures to maximize entropy production. And what is more this intelligent development has not stopped but will continue forever to greater complexity. In any system which the flow of power is removed (called thermodynamic equilibrium) all energy in the system will transform toward inert uniformity. In other words God's power is required just to hold our order or current state of development in existence. Without this intelligent power we would or rather the energy or substance comprising our body would transform to inert uniformity. We would cease to exist without this intelligence holding us together.
This reminds me of Max Planck's words as he recieves the Nobel prize;
"All matter originates and exists only by virtue of a force which brings the particle of an atom to vibration and holds... the atom together. We must assume behind this force the existence of a conscious and intelligent Mind. This Mind is the matrix of all matter."
I would surmise this force as being do to the intelligent power which holds the order of matter in existence. Hence, every moment is God's creation.
It would be very delightful to investigate these thoughts.
Spinoza says; we cannot be more certain of the existence of anything, than of the existence of a being absolutely infinite or perfect--that is, of God. I have said this many times to Courtney and the gang. I suggested; If you cannot prove God's existence then neither can you prove anything else's existence.
Re:Compassion is POWER!!!!!!! - 2005/10/15 10:49Benjamin quoted the following for discussion;
The following proofs come from Book I, Proposition 11 from Spinoza's Ethics. Enjoy!
PROP. XI. God, or substance, consisting of infinite attributes, of which each expresses eternal and infinite essentiality, necessarily exists.
Proof.--If this be denied, conceive, if possible, that God does not exist: then his essence does not involve existence. But this (by Prop. vii.) is absurd. Therefore God necessarily exists.
Another proof.--Of everything whatsoever a cause or reason must be assigned, either for its existence, or for its non-existence--e.g., if a triangle exist, a reason or cause must be granted for its existence; if, on the contrary, it does not exist, a cause must also be granted, which prevents it from existing, or annuls its existence. This reason or cause must either be contained inthe nature of the thing in question, or be external to it. For instance, the reason for the non-existence of a square circle is indicated in its nature, namely, because it would involve a contradiction. On the other hand, the existence of substance follows also solely from its nature, inasmuch as its nature involves existence. (See Prop. vii.)
But the reason for the existence of a triangle or a circle does not follow from the nature of those figures, but from the order of universal nature in extension. From the latter it must follow, either that a triangle necessarily exists, or that it is impossible that it should exist. So much is self-evident. It follows therefrom that a thing necessarily exists, if no cause or reason be granted which prevents its existence.
If, then, no cause or reason can be given, which prevents the existence of God, or which destroys his existence, we must certainly conclude that he necessarily does exist. If such a reason or cause should be given, it must either be drawn from the very nature of God, or be external to him--that is, drawn from another substance of another nature. For if it were of the same nature, God, by that very fact, would be admitted to exist. But substance of another nature could have nothing in common with God (by Prop. ii.), and therefore would be unable either to cause or to destroy his existence.
As, then, a reason or cause which would annul the divine existence cannot be drawn from anything external to the divine nature, such cause must, perforce, if God does not exist, be drawn from God's own nature, which would involve a contradiction. To make such an affirmation about a being absolutely infinite and supremely perfect, is absurd; therefore, neither in the nature of God; nor externally to his nature, can a cause or reason be assigned which would annul his existence. Therefore, God necessarily exists. Q.E.D.
Another proof.--The potentiality of non-existence is a negation of power, and contrariwise the potentiality of existence is a power, as is obvious. If, then, that which necessarily exists is nothing but finite beings, such finite beings are more powerful than a being absolutely infinite, which is obviously absurd; therefore, either nothing exists, or else a being absolutely infinite necessarily exists also. Now we exist either in ourselves, or in something else which necessarily exists (see Ax. i. and Prop. vii.) Therefore a being absolutely infinite--in other words, God (Def. vi.)--necessarily exists. Q.E.D.
Note.--In this last proof, I have purposely shown God's existence a posteriori, so that the proof might be more easily followed, not because, from the same premises, God's existence does not follow a priori. For, as the potentiality of existence is a power, it follows that, in proportion as reality increases in the nature of a thing, so also will it increase its strength for existence. Therefore a being absolutely infinite, such as God, has from himself an absolutely infinite power of existence, and hence he does absolutely exist. Perhaps there will be many who will be unable to see the force of this proof, inasmuch as they are accustomed only to consider those things which flow from external causes. Of such things, they see that those which quickly come to pass--that is, quickly come into existence--quickly also disappear; whereas they regard as more difficult of accomplishment--that is, not so easily brought into existence--those things which they conceive as more complicated.
However, to do away with this misconception, I need not here show the measure of truth in the proverb, "What comes quickly, goes quickly," nor discuss whether, from the point of view of universal nature, all things are equally easy, or otherwise: I need only remark, that I am not here speaking of things, which come to pass through causes external to themselves, but only of substances which (by Prop. vi.) cannot be produced by any external cause. Things which are produced by external causes, whether they consist of many parts or few, owe whatsoever perfection or reality they possess solely to the efficacy of their external cause, and therefore their existence arises solely from the perfection of their external cause, not from their own. Contrariwise, whatsoever perfection is possessed by substance is due to no external cause; wherefore the existence of substance must arise solely from its own nature, which is nothing else but its essence. Thus, the perfection of a thing does not annul its existence, but, on the contrary, asserts it. Imperfection, on the other hand, does annul it; therefore we cannot be more certain of the existence of anything, than of the existence of a being absolutely infinite or perfect--that is, of God. For inasmuch as his essence excludes all imperfection, and involves absolute perfection, all cause for doubt concerning his existence is done away, and the utmost certainty on the question is given. This, I think, will be evident to every moderately attentive reader.Your Peace, Surrender, In You, YHVH Re-connect Co-operative
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polemotheos
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Re:Compassion is POWER!!!!!!! - 2005/10/15 11:32<blockquote>Can you show me where Spinoza's definition power is?</blockquote> I assume Spinoza is using terms in the sense which is understood through empirical science. Power itself is measured in Joules per second and describes the rate of energy transformation. Energy or God is the substance to which Spinoza is demonstrating a proof. However I am following the natural path of his prove to demonstrate the intelligence or consciousness of God.
<blockquote>What exactly does "greater order" mean here? I'm not sure if this fits with what Spinoza's conception of power is. The only place he sort of defined it was in respect to mind. He essentially says that knowledge and understanding is power, IIRC.</blockquote> I would love to see his definition of power. The way you describe it I obviously agree. Order would be the opposite of "inert uniformity". Greater order or development would be even less inert uniformity; Structures of greater complexity.
<blockquote>That's the issue. Are you accepting his proofs as face value or not? I'm pretty sure Kant's critique of the ontological argument applies to at least one or two the arguments. (It might apply to all, I'd have to look more closely.)</blockquote> I believe a monistic proof of God is irrifutable. Dualism falls apart in many places.
I said;
<blockquote>As demonstrated by the maximization of entropy production; God continues to create order and more advanced developments.</blockquote>
You say; <blockquote>huh?</blockquote>
I say; <blockquote>Some how energy has a conscious awareness of how to develop complex structures to maximize entropy production. And what is more this intelligent development has not stopped but will continue forever to greater complexity.</blockquote>
You say; <blockquote>Here's the issue. You're essentially challenging the Second Law of Thermodynamics. Is that what you want to do?
Spinoza believes that the laws of nature are, essentially, logically necessary; they could not be otherwise. Granted, it may be the case that our understanding of these laws are flawed in some way. I think you really need to reexamine your viewpoint.
For the sake of argument, let's assume energy is conscious and intelligent. Then it still follows that anything we observe about nature is still true. So if the Second Law is something we observed about nature, then it still holds true. So refuting the Second Law of Nature is not doing anything to further your claims. Even if you were to show that it was fundamentally flawed, it only shows that our understanding of how the universe works is off. It in no way establishes what you think it establishes.</blockquote>
The misunderstanding of the second Law of Nature is a result of the fallacy of dualism. Ross helped me see this;
[blockQUOTE]RossWrote: I'm going to explain the second law of THERMOdynamics in a way you might be able to understand.<br> First, please, understand that entropy refers to energy DISPERAL, not disorder.<br> Read up on the Law of Maximized Entropy Production.<br> Energy will disperse in the most efficient manner possible. This in fact can lead to complexity. If there is a pathway that better conducts the dispersal of energy than pure entropy (dispersal in a normal, spread out manner), the energy will disperse in that manner.<br> In more technical terms "the system will select the path or assembly of paths out of otherwise available paths that minimizes the potential or maximizes the entropy at the fastest rate given the constraints".<br> The second law says energy will disperse. The Law of Maximized Entropy adds to that by saying energy will disperse in the best path. <br> Now, consider this: in many cases (such as whirlwinds), the pathway with least potential and maximum entropy can be MORE complex than simple dispersal. If this is the case, energy will disperse through a MORE complex system.<br> <A HREF="http://www.entropylaw.com/thermoevolution10.html"> more reading </a>[/blockQUOTE]
The law of maximized entropy production provides the means by which Creation has and does happen and how it remains in existence.
<blockquote>How exactly do you think this meshes with Spinoza? Your notion of power doesn't mesh with Spinoza. He might argue something to the extent of having more or less being: such as having the fullness of being or lacking being (nonexistent). But this does not affect the laws of nature in any way.</blockquote> You should take note that Spinoza's proof is mainly of God's existence not his intelligence. In now way do I disagree with Spinoza's position for it is a monistic proof. I am just following the next logical steps in the proof...
<blockquote>This is more idealism, not Spinoza's metaphysics. For Spinoza, God is the only substance and both extension and thought are ways which we can understand God (which gets around the whole mind/body problem.) (He also argues that these are only two of an infinitude of ways we can understand God.)</blockquote> I am not sure you were understanding Max Planck. He is saying the substance of existence is inherently intelligent.
<blockquote>Um, if God is the universe then, yes, we need to posit the existence of the universe; otherwise nothing will exist.
But I'm curious why you used the phrase "anything else's". Whether this is conscious or not, you are still utilizing a conception of God that Spinoza is rejecting. The Judeo-Christian worldview is one in which God and nature are separate and distinct entities and God is the cause of the other. But Spinoza argues that this cannot be the case. No substance can be the cause of another substance (Prop 2 and 3). The "anything else's" are not distinct from god.
But I'm still not entirely sure why you're utilizing Spinoza. For all greater purposes, Spinoza was an atheist.</blockquote> The fundimentalist christianity which is itself a pagan apostacy from the truth does not in any way represent true christainity.
Paul himself says;
"What may be known about God is manifest..., for God made it manifest... For his invisible [qualities], even his eternal power and Godship, are clearly seen from the world’s creation onward, because they are perceived by the things made,..." (Romans 1:19-20)
God's word also says the following;
"For by [God] we have life and move and exist" (Acts 17:28). Jehovah actuates our entire existence.
"For out of [God], and through [God], and in [God] are all things:..." (Romans 11:36)
It even says God himself actually fills the entire universe. (Jeremiah 23:24)
For Spinoza to demonstrate of proof of God's existence and at the same time to be called an atheist is humorous to me. None the less I find you atheist help me more then my so called apostate brothers in christendom. At least you believe your believes should be based on things that can be proven.
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