Re:SOME FOOD FOR THOUGHT... - 2005/11/14 12:39Littleleslie wrote: Hi Ablebodiedman:
First, I decided to purchase the book. I had to read "THE REPORT", because that book is designed to bring out the facts and helped me see without a shadow of a doubt the way Jehovah felt about the spiritual condition of "his name people". As you have noted, the prophecy of Ezekiel helps greatly in that endeavor.
I know you have personally been resisting the idea of reading that book authored by Don Burney. But, purchasing the book and getting my personal copy of the book, I believe was a key aspect of putting this puzzle together for me.
I have already spent all of my money somewhere else.
Revelation 3:18
18 I advise you to buy from me gold refined by fire that you may become rich, and white outer garments that you may become dressed and that the shame of your nakedness may not become manifested, and eyesalve to rub in your eyes that you may see.
Regards
ablebodiedman
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savvy
User Senior Boarder
Posts: 11
Re:SOME FOOD FOR THOUGHT... - 2005/11/14 13:02Littleleslie,
I have read "the Report", I have looked at your website. I was led to believe that Jehovah needed me to study this nonsense. Let me tell you something, Jehovah doesn't need us to study anything but our bibles. The only way Don Burney has put a piece of the puzzle together, is by cutting it to fit. You might as well take a jigsaw to your bible.
I gave you solid information as to what the "scapegoat" really means. Did you listen? Did you act as a "borean"? No. You didn't even acknowledge my words. Maybe you should reconsider what a "borean" really is.
I wonder, what does your husband think about all this? Or has this MDS character badgered you into leaving your husband? Think about it. Yes, indeed.
Post edited by: savvy, at: 2005/11/15 12:28
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Melancholymuse
Visitor Platinum Boarder
Posts: 72
Re:SOME FOOD FOR THOUGHT... - 2005/11/15 00:45Huh? Am I reading this correctly? Burney makes people leave their husbands? WHY????!!!! (Omigosh, please tell me this isn't like a David Koresh deal!)
Sorry if this is off topic, but this is a bit hard to swallow!
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MADMARY1
User Gold Boarder
Posts: 41
Re: The 1919 Fall of BTG??? - 2005/11/15 07:18The following information is an excerpt from the publication called The "Report" Volume II.
WHAT THE FACTS REVEAL ABOUT THE 1919 "FALL" OF BABYLON THE GREAT, AS TAUGHT BY THE WATCHTOWER SOCIETY
Please find below, three (3) key points to consider to assist us to better understand this most important topic.
1) This entire explanation of how `Babylon fell,' is based upon the erroneous premise that Jesus was enthroned and came into Kingdom power in the fateful year of 1914 to make the Grand Announcement of Her "Fall."
2) In what way could we say that Jehovah's Witnesses were "released" from The World Empire of False Religion in 1919? Were they released say, doctrinally speaking???
Well, let's keep in mind that the focus of the escape of Jehovah's Witnesses from the clutches of Babylon the Great really has nothing to do with the early efforts of Charles T. Russell in liberating the "International Bible Students." This part of the story must be conveniently left out since all of the religious works of Russell came before Jesus supposedly came into kingdom power in the year of 1914. And so, if you were to ask a witness: "Did Charles Russell and the International Bible Students escape from Babylon the Great?" , they usually look puzzled. However, if one were to think about it, he would have to admit that there must have been at least two escapes from "Babylon the Great" ? One during Russell's day, and one during the year of 1919, right? But again, is this what the Bible teaches about true escape from Babylon the Great?
Also, the Watch Tower Society has taught for many years the remnant of anointed actually shared bloodguilt for their misdeeds during the war years of 1914-1918. It is taught that they, the "anointed," did not take a neutral stand during those years. Let's notice this quote:
"In similar fashion, the modern-day remnant of spiritual Israel had to do some reforming as to their way and thoughts as World War I ended on November 11, 1918, and they entered still alive on earth into the postwar period. Their exile from God's full favor in Babylon the Great's realm was about to end, and it became the proper time for they to think about their failings and shortcomings with regard to God's worship and service. They had come under a community responsibility because of the bloodshed and violence of World War I. They needed to search for Jehovah and to call upon his name in prayer..." ? Man's Salvation Out of World Distress At Hand pgs. 114
And so, according to the Watch Tower Society, since Jehovah and Jesus visited the "temple" class in 1918 and rendered appropriate "judgments" upon Christendom as well the anointed "temple" of God, the captivity of Jehovah's Witnesses would prove to be very brief, occurring between the years of 1918 and 1919. A very brief period indeed. However, if the "International Bible Students" of 1919 were really freed from the influences and control of the churches of Babylon the Great, why is it that the organization retained so many teachings and practices that are today viewed as of "pagan" origin? And what about the teachings and beliefs of Charles T. Russell and his early companions? Are these present teachings in harmony with the belief of Charles T. Russell and his understanding of escape from Babylon the Great? Let's examine the following.
As you may remember, prior to 1919 under Charles T. Russell, the International Bible Students, as they were known then, had exposed several false religious teachings such as eternal suffering in hellfire for the wicked, immortality of the human soul, and the trinity doctrine. Even so, it was to be many years after the date of 1919 when Jehovah's Witnesses would discover that Christmas, Birthdays, and the Cross were of pagan origin. (See Jehovah's Witnesses - Proclaimers of God's Kingdom, Pages 200, 201 - 1993) Note this quote from the 1975 Yearbook of Jehovah's Witnesses, page 148, paragraph 3:
" . . . beginning with its issue of October 15, 1931, The Watchtower no longer bore the cross and crown symbol on its cover." (see 1975 Yearbook of Jehovah's Witnesses, pg. 147-149)
So could we say Jehovah's Witnesses were truly free from Babylonish teachings in 1919? Hardly! (See Proverbs 30:12) This raises still another question. What in fact did the Watchtower Society teach as to the identity of Babylon the Great itself during those years?
"BABYLON THE GREAT" AND CHARLES T. RUSSELL
It might surprise you to know that the Watchtower Society has taught three (3) different viewpoints concerning the identity of Babylon the Great over the years. That's right, three different viewpoints. The Watchtower Society first taught, under Pastor Russell, that Babylon the Great was the "Papacy of Rome." Secondly, the Watchtower Society taught that Satan's World in general was "Babylon the Great. And finally, in 1963 the world empire of false religion (inclusive of Christendom and Pagandom) was thought to be mysterious "Babylon the Great" from which one should escape. According to the publication, Jehovah's Witnesses' Proclaimers of Gods Kingdom, Pg. 52, Charles T. Russell published in the November 1879 Watch Tower magazine that "Babylon the Great" was the "Papacy as a system." This was apparently their first viewpoint.
The second viewpoint is revealed in the following excerpt taken from the article "Get Out of Her, My People" printed in the October 1, 1960 Watchtower magazine which says in part:
"... Babylon of old was the pride and joy of God's adversary, Satan the Devil. It was his organization. It so completely represented his foul works that in the Bible, especially in the book of Revelation, it became a symbol of his wicked world organization."
Now notice how the WT Society makes the actual breakdown of exactly what Babylon the Great is suppose to represent. The articles explains:
"This Babylonish world boasts of its [1] military might, [2] political ideologies, [3] economic prosperity and [4] great religions. However, God has decreed the same fate for modern Babylon that befell its ancient counterpart..."
"Now, in this year, the handwriting on the wall for modern Babylon, Satan's world, is clear. Since the beginning of World War I in 1914 this world has entered its foretold "time of the end," the warning of which has been sounded faithfully by Jehovah's modern witnesses for over eighty years. Detailed Bible prophecies are being fulfilled before our eyes." (pg. 581, ¶ 5, 6 thru 582, ¶ 4)
Did you notice that this message had been "faithfully sounded" for over "eighty years" as of the year of 1960! That would mean that from the Watchtower Society's conception, during Charles T. Russell's day, they have carried this message to "Get Out of Babylon" to the people! Yes, in CT Russell's day. In other words, they [Watchtower Society and Jehovah's Witnesses] had been liberated from Babylon the Great way back in Russell's day. Certainly C.T. Russell didn't feel that he was still in Babylon the Great, the Harlot, did he??? Understandably, he must have felt he had successfully escaped from the Great `Harlot,' as is bore out by the following comments by Pastor Russell himself in the May, 1884 Watch Tower magazine pg. 5, and also quoted in the Jehovah's Witnesses in the Divine Purpose publication, (pg. 37) which said:
"Since 1878 (and never before that) we have felt at liberty to call God's children out of the nominal churches to a position of freedom and liberty, where they would be free to serve Him fully, as well as to study his word and be taught of Him: saying, `Babylon ... is fallen and become a habitation of devils and a hold of every foul spirit and a cage of every unclean and hateful bird.'
Yes, since the year 1878, Charles T. Russell believed that "escape" was made possible by Jehovah God for all of his people, from "Babylon the Great," or the religious institutions of his time. That point is quite clear we must admit. But let's also notice something else that is very important. In the 1884 Watch Tower, Russell explained the actual "fall" itself of Babylon the Great during his lifetime by saying, and we quote:
"(This falling of the nominal church and receiving into her bosom the corruptions of earth has been in progress for some time). Now comes the message: `And I heard another voice saying, Come out of her my people that ye be not partakers of her sins and receive not of her plagues.' " (Rev. xviii. 2-4)."
Now we ask:
What was Charles T. Russell's position as to his "escape" from the clutches of "Babylon the Great" of his time? Does he not clearly show that he, and numerous others, had indeed "escaped" the "nominal church" organizations of Babylon the Great? Clearly, Charles T. Russell did indeed teach that he and many others had actually "escaped" from Babylon the Great, did he not?
However, consider this. If we adopt the latest viewpoint of the Watchtower Society, that is the one expounded in 1963 on the real `escape from Babylon,' which supposedly occurred in the year of 1919, and not 1878 as Russell taught, we must ask:
"Where does this new explanation, given in the year of 1963, leave Pastor Russell, the leader and founder of the corporate Watch Tower Society, as to his "escape" from Babylon the Great? Yes, where does this new explanation, leave the founder and first publisher of the official journal called the "Watch Tower" magazine, in relation to his actual "escape" from Babylon the Great? Again, where does this new explanation of the true "escape" from Babylon, leave the founder of the modern-day movement of Jehovah's Witnesses, or International Bible Students, as they were known during his time? Did Charles T. Russell, after more than 40 years of preaching and teaching God's Word, himself die, in 1916, `unliberated' from Babylon the Great? Or were there "two escapes" from Babylon ? one during Russell's day and one in 1919? Think about it.
Remember, the true escape from "fallen" Babylon the Great occurred in 1919, as first published in the book, Babylon the Great HAS FALLEN!" God's Kingdom Rules! in 1963. Now, we repeat, if we adopt this more recent viewpoint, then we must face the fact that either Charles T. Russell had not "escaped from Babylon," or after his death in 1916, the organization was re-captured again by Babylon the Great for a brief period of time? We can actually see that what the Watch Tower Society teaches on this subject is very confusing.
Now, lets review in our minds what Revelation 18:2, 4 says. Remember, Babylon would have to "fall" first, BEFORE God's people could "escape," right??? (Please reread Revelation 18:2,4.) And there is no mention of any second captivity or re-capturing of God's "people." And so, how did Charles Russell and thousands of "International Bible Students," make their escape from what was thought to be "Babylon the Great" before Babylon actually "falls" in 1919? Further, if Babylon the Great only `fell' in 1919, three years after Russell had died (1916), then how could C.T. Russell, the founding father of the Watchtower Society and it's first President, have made his escape from it? Actually, if this present explanation of matters is true, then C.T. Russell himself, had not really "escaped" from Babylon the Great, that is, before it had "fallen," in God's sight. Remember, the scripture says Babylon "falls" first then God's people make their escape. And certainly, there is no mention of any second captivity, is there? Think about it.
Therefore, we must ask the Watchtower Society this question in view of their past position on the "escape" from Babylon the Great:
Where does C.T. Russell stand in relation to the great "fall" of Babylon in 1919 C.E.? Did C.T. Russell himself make his escape before Babylon "fell" in 1919, or did he die "unliberated" from Babylon, the Harlot, because he died before Babylon could experience the great "fall" of 1919 C.E.?
Think about it.
However, let us continue along with the explanations in this revealing article. The same 1960 Watchtower magazine furthers points out:
"A heavy responsibility falls on yet another part of the Babylonish world, the false religious element, which has divided people and confused their knowledge of God." - Watchtower 1960 pg. 583 par. 3
Also, the summation of the matter is made for us in these comments under the heading "Get Out of Her," in the same magazine which says:
"All these things are part of the great sign of the times that Jesus gave, indicating the near end of this world. The complete wrecking of modern Babylon with her [1] hurtful politics, [2] commerce and [3] false religions is fast approaching, yes, within our lifetime!"
And how should the sincere seeker of Truth "get out of Her???" Notice this point:
"God is judging the nations today. The warning work of Jehovah's witnesses grows day by day. Take heed to it for your own safety during the coming universal war of Armageddon. What should you do? Study God's Word to ascertain his will and purposes. Then, as you make your mind over to conform to his will, separate yourself from this world's wicked practices and schemes. Put your hope and trust in God's established kingdom." (pg. 583 par. 5-7)
Yes, that is how the Jehovah's Witnesses escaped Babylon the Great ? the world under Satan's control! They must "separate from the "world's wicked practices" and "schemes." Now what do you think of that? (See also 1975 Yearbook of Jehovah's Witnesses, pg. 147-149.)
--------------------------------end of quote--------------------------
Re: The 1919 Fall of BTG??? - 2005/11/15 17:16Mary,
Maybe this will help.
Deuteronomy 31:29
and calamity will be bound to befall YOU at the close of the days, because YOU will do what is bad in the eyes of Jehovah so as to offend him by the works of YOUR hands.”
Deuteronomy 32
1 “Give ear, O heavens, and let me speak; And let the earth hear the sayings of my mouth.
2 My instruction will drip as the rain, My saying will trickle as the dew, As gentle rains upon grass And as copious showers upon vegetation.
3 For I shall declare the name of Jehovah. Do YOU attribute greatness to our God!
4 The Rock, perfect is his activity, For all his ways are justice. A God of faithfulness, with whom there is no injustice; Righteous and upright is he.
5 They have acted ruinously on their own part; They are not his children, the defect is their own. A generation crooked and twisted! <---- (This generation) 6 Is it to Jehovah that YOU keep doing this way, O people stupid and not wise? Is he not your Father who has produced you, He who made you and proceeded to give you stability?
7 Remember the days of old, CONSIDER the years back from generation to generation; Ask your father, and he can tell you; Your old men, and they can say it to you.
8 When the Most High gave the nations an inheritance, When he parted the sons of Adam from one another, He proceeded to fix the boundary of the peoples With regard for the number of the sons of Israel.
9 For Jehovah’s share is his people; Jacob is the allotment that he inherits.
10 He came to find him in a wilderness land, And in an empty, howling desert. He began to encircle him, to take care of him, To safeguard him as the pupil of his eye.
11 Just as an eagle stirs up its nest, Hovers over its fledglings, Spreads out its wings, takes them, Carries them on its pinions,
12 Jehovah alone kept leading him, And there was no foreign god along with him. <---- the early bible students.
13 He kept making him ride upon earth’s high places, So that he ate the produce of the field. And he kept making him suck honey out of a crag, And oil out of a flinty rock; <---- the early bible students.
14 Butter of the herd and milk of the flock Together with the fat of rams, And male sheep, the breed of Ba´shan, and he-goats Together with the kidney fat of wheat; And the blood of the grape you kept drinking as wine. <---- the early bible students.
15 When Jesh´u·run began to grow fat, then he kicked. <------ Jehovah's Witnesses You have grown fat, you have become thick, you have become gorged. So he forsook God, who made him, And despised the Rock of his salvation. <------ Jehovah's Witnesses
16 They began inciting him to jealousy with strange gods; <--- the With detestable things they kept offending him. <---- man of lawlessness
17 They went sacrificing to demons, not to God, <-- annointed celebrate memorial organised by the weeds - Satans seed Gods whom they had not known, <--- the annointed kings commit spiritual fornication New ones who recently came in, <----- the weeds/ new GB With whom YOUR forefathers were not acquainted.
18 The Rock who fathered you, you proceeded to forget, And you began to leave God out of memory, the One bringing you forth with childbirth pains. <----Jehovah'sWitnesses don't think it's a big deal
19 When Jehovah saw it, then he came to disrespect them, Because of the vexation his sons and his daughters gave.
20 So he said, ‘Let me conceal my face from them, Let me see what their end will be afterward. <---that is why God lets an operation of error go to them, For they are a generation of perverseness, <-- this generation shall by no means pass away Sons in whom there is no faithfulness.
21 They, for their part, have incited me to jealousy with what is no god;<-- MOL They have vexed me with their vain idols; And I, for my part, shall incite them to jealousy with what is no people;<-- weeds With a stupid nation I shall offend them.
22 For a fire has been ignited in my anger And it will burn down to She´ol, the lowest place, And it will consume the earth and its produce And will set ablaze the foundations of mountains.
23 I shall increase calamities upon them; My arrows I shall spend upon them. <--- the sons of Jacob antitype break through
24 Exhausted from hunger they will be and eaten up by burning fever And bitter destruction. And the teeth of beasts I shall send upon them, With the venom of reptiles of the dust.
25 Outdoors a sword will bereave them, And indoors fright, Of both young man and virgin, Suckling together with gray-haired man.
26 I should have said: “I shall disperse them, I will make the mention of them cease from mortal men,”
27 Were it not that I was afraid of vexation from the enemy, That their adversaries might misconstrue it, That they might say: “Our hand has proved superior, And it was not Jehovah who worked all this out.”
28 For they are a nation on whom counsel perishes, And among them there is no understanding.
29 O that they were wise! Then they would ponder over this.
They would consider their end afterward.
30 How could one pursue a thousand, And two put ten thousand to flight?<----- The Two Witnesses point out the error of those invited to be kings over the earth.Not unless their Rock had sold them And Jehovah had surrendered them.
31 For their rock is not like our Rock, Even our enemies being the ones to decide. <-- The Nations will also become aware of the iniquities of the GB and WTBTS
32 For their vine is from the vine of Sod´om <--- the evil slave And from the terraces of Go·mor´rah. Their grapes are grapes of poison, Their clusters are bitter.
33 Their wine is the venom of big snakes And the cruel poison of cobras.
34 Is it not laid up with me, With a seal affixed to it in my storehouse?
35 Vengeance is mine, and retribution.
At the appointed time their foot will move unsteadily, For the day of their disaster is near, And the events in readiness for them do make haste.’
36 For Jehovah will judge his people And he will feel regret over his servants, Because he will see that support has disappeared And there is only a helpless and worthless one. <--- the meek
37 And he will certainly say, ‘Where are their gods, The rock in whom they sought refuge, <--- The GB and WTBTS
38 Who used to eat the fat of their sacrifices, To drink the wine of their drink offerings? <--- voluntary contributions Let them get up and help YOU. <--- the GB and WTBTS Let them become a concealment place for YOU.
39 SEE now that I—I am he And there are no gods together with me. <--- small "g" god. the man of lawlessness.I put to death, and I make alive. I have severely wounded, and I—I will heal, And there is no one snatching out of my hand.
40 For I raise my hand to heaven [in an oath], And I do say: “As I am alive to time indefinite,”
41 If I do indeed sharpen my glittering sword, And my hand takes hold on judgment, I will pay back vengeance to my adversaries And render retribution to those who intensely hate me.
42 I shall intoxicate my arrows with blood, While my sword will eat flesh, With the blood of the slain and the captives, With the heads of the leaders of the enemy.’ <---- the GB
43 Be glad, YOU nations, with his people, For he will avenge the blood of his servants, <-- upon Babylon the Great And he will pay back vengeance to his adversaries And will indeed make atonement for the ground of his people.”
Chronologicaly I think we are around verse 21-23
Thats how I see it.
regards
ablebodiedman
Post edited by: ablebodiedman, at: 2005/12/01 04:22
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ablebodiedman
User Platinum Boarder
Posts: 353
Re:To the anointed. - 2005/12/01 04:38ablebodiedman wrote: You can be certain that with my letter and the explanations I have given above that the Governing Body and the WTBTS will be disturbed and enraged.
Satan will now use the full strength of the organization run by his wicked seed to destroy the faith of many people.
Daniel 11:44
44 “But there will be reports that will disturb him, out of the sunrising and out of the north, and he will certainly go forth in a great rage in order to annihilate and to devote many to destruction. 45 And he will plant his palatial tents between [the] grand sea and the holy mountain of Decoration; and he will have to come all the way to his end, and there will be no helper for him.
This is when everyones loyalty will be tested.
This will determine wether your name is written in the book (of life).
Daniel 12:1
1 “And during that time Mi´cha·el will stand up, the great prince who is standing in behalf of the sons of your people. And there will certainly occur a time of distress such as has not been made to occur since there came to be a nation until that time. And during that time your people will escape, every one who is found written down in the book
2Peter 3:17 17 YOU, therefore, beloved ones, having this advance knowledge, be on YOUR guard that YOU may not be led away with them by the error of the law-defying people and fall from YOUR own steadfastness. 18 No, but go on growing in the undeserved kindness and knowledge of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ. To him [be] the glory both now and to the day of eternity.
regards
ablebodiedman
If you are anointed are you going to celebrate a memorial which is organised by those same people who undermine Jehovah's appointed king Jesus Christ?
Will you be celebrating inside a Kingdom Hall of Jehovah's Witnesses?
Do you think it really doesn’t matter whether you celebrate inside a Kingdom Hall or not?
Then carefully consider what it says in Revelation Chapter 3:
15 ‘I know your deeds, that you are neither cold nor hot. I wish you were cold or else hot. 16 So, because you are lukewarm and neither hot nor cold, I am going to vomit you out of my mouth. 17 Because you say: “I am rich and have acquired riches and do not need anything at all,” but you do not know you are miserable and pitiable and poor and blind and naked, 18 I advise you to buy from me gold refined by fire that you may become rich, and white outer garments that you may become dressed and that the shame of your nakedness may not become manifested, and eyesalve to rub in your eyes that you may see. 19 “‘All those for whom I have affection I reprove and discipline. Therefore be zealous and repent. 20 Look! I am standing at the door and knocking. If anyone hears my voice and opens the door, I will come into his [house] and take the evening meal with him and he with me. 21 To the one that conquers I will grant to sit down with me on my throne, even as I conquered and sat down with my Father on his throne. 22 Let the one who has an ear hear what the spirit says to the congregations.’”
Can you see?
In the Lords day the memorial celebration is very different to those described by the Apostles who wrote before John’s Revelation.
Why would Jesus come and celebrate the memorial inside each individual anointed ones home and not inside a Kingdom Hall?
Read and understand my letter to all Jehovah’s Witnesses for the answer.
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