Babylon the Great - 2005/10/29 22:14After reading the letter posted on this site the next logical question is wether to leave the organization of Jehovah's Witnesses or not.
This of course would bring the reader to wonder wether The WTBTS and Governing body are represented in the book of Revelation and elsewhere in the bible as Babylon the Great.
I find it very interesting that many of the participants on e-watchman are now discussing this with much fervor.
In the past registered members were banned from the paradise cafe for suggesting the possibility.
Times have changed.
So what do you think?
regards
ablebodiedman
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MADMARY1
User Gold Boarder
Posts: 41
Re:Babylon the Great - 2005/10/30 04:12Hi Ablebodiedman:
...I'm baaaack!!!
I just wanted to mention the fact that Donald C. Burney explained in detail as early as 1994 (in The "Report" Volume II) the wicked Watchtower Society would prove to be "Babylon The Great" in fulfillment of bible prophecy, and would be openly acknowledged as such in the eyes of many repentant Jehovah's witnesses, as well as many outsiders and persons of interest in the world in general, to fulfill bible prophecy.
Of course, as you have noted, on Watchman's Discussion Board, many were taught, that the Watchtower Society's long-standing teaching on BTG, will prove to be completely correct in the end, in saying the churches and religions of this world correctly pictures "Babylon The Great" of bible prophecy. On that particular discussion board, these repentant Jehovah's witnesses were taught the Watchtower Society was NOT a part of Babylon The Great at all, since the churches and religions of this world (excluding the Watchtower Society) made up the nefarious "Babylon The Great" of Bible Prophecy and that Jehovah's witnesses will experience a FUTURE "captivity" from the false religions of the world.
However more recently, as you have noted, many repentant Jehovah's witnesses, even on Watchman's Discussion Board and elsewhere, are beginning to see this particular viewpoint and teaching of "Babylon The Great" is in itself, yes, a FALSE DOCTRINE, taught them by a wicked, self-appointed false prophet himself (like his mentor, the WTS), in whom Jehovah Himself is now clearly and openly revealing as such.
Hope this helps.
MADMARY1
PS: Also, page 59 of The "Report" Volume I (1994) also speaks of the future "fall" of Jehovah's witnesses under the wicked leadership of the Watchtower Society (Rev. 18:4) and directs attention to Volume II of The "Report" book, where these details can be obtained.
Of course, there are several people on this discussion board that can verify this fact, since they have a personal copy of volume I of The "Report" book.
Re:Babylon the Great - 2005/10/30 10:04I have to agree that the Watchtower Society has more than likely always been a part of Babylon the Great like any other religion. The fact that the Watchtower Society got onto the back of the UN for 10 years has forced me to recently conclude that I'm afraid, no matter how much the core beliefs of JW's may be correct. If we are to say JW's are not a part of BTG we would have to say the International Bible Students are not a part of it either. God's people, the anointed, the holy ones, are yet to 'flee' false religion. It awaits a future fulfilment. That also harmonises with the realisation that the wheat and the weeds are yet to be harvested. E-watchman equivocates 'the kingdom' in that parable to be the JW religion, but I'm doubtful about that. The 7 Revelation congregations, all of whom housed holy ones, had sectarianised beliefs - JW's do not. This means the holy ones can be found in any sectarianised Christian religion that is monotheistic, iconoclastic, and knows the truth about the condition of the dead and the human soul. I think the holy ones currently are more than likely still trapped in a number of religions that meet that criteria, ie, teach those correct core doctrine, but that most of them are JW's. During the great tribulation, when the harvest occurs, some from broader trinitarianised Christendom may even receive an anointing when the 'pure language' is more recognisable, but currently none of the anointed are found in mainstream Christendom.
I reject Don Burney's claims that JW's are exclusively a modern-day Israel merely because they use the name Jehovah a lot and adopted that name officially in 1931 for the new name of their religion. Don Burney's argument in 'The Report' that the first century Christians called themselves by the name Jehovah and used that name a lot is extremely weak and flies in the face of the overall New Testament testimony. He makes the error of jumping more or less straight from the OT to modern times, bypassing the body of evidence in the NT.
On the matter of God's name, I tend to agree with Ray Franz in his book 'In Search of Christian Freedom' that the tetragammaton appears to have somehow been fulfilled in Jesus. It appears that Jehovah purposefully meant his old covenant name to no longer be the main focus; all the textual evidence from the most ancient versions of the NT books force us to conclude this. (the translators of the New World Translation took great liberties in how many times they inserted 'Jehovah' into the NT; there is really only a case for inserting the name in those instances where the NT writers quote directly from the Hebrew Scriptures.) Jesus has been given a name above all names (Php 2: 9 & 10), and there is no name under heaven by which we must be saved (Acts 4:12). The Father gave his son that status and title. Time and again the NT tells us we are to be witnesses to Jesus, not Jehovah per se. Even the book of Revelation identifies the holy ones by their bearing witness to 'Jesus'. So true Christians are first and foremost to be Jesus' witnesses. Calling ourselves 'Jehovah's Witnesses' was unnecessary by President Rutherford. He flouted brother Russell's efforts to resist giving ourselves a naming title. (The first century Christians were only called 'Christian's by 'divine providence', or they were also known as 'the way' or 'the sect of the Nazarenes'.) It put too much emphasis back on OT theology. Only the Israelite nation could rightfully claim to be Jehovah's Witnesses. This in no way is disrespectful to Jehovah, it just means that calling him 'Father' is more than adequate for Christians, which is in fact the model left for us by Christ, who never once is recorded in scripture as addressing his heavenly Father as YHWH. Likewise, those who receive an adopting by the holy spirit as God's sons are to address God as 'Abba, Father', not 'Abba, YHWH'. It was a new arrangement. So calling God 'Jehovah' cannot therefore an identifying mark of true Christians IMHO, despite our sentimental and emotional attachment to that name. At the same time, monotheism IS an identifying mark I believe. The trinity along with many faulty translations of the bible are absolutely a corruption of primitive Christian belief.
Post edited by: Wuji, at: 2005/10/30 10:39
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Patrick
User Junior Boarder
Posts: 9
Re:Babylon the Great - 2005/10/30 12:11Hi Ablebodiedman,
Nice to speak with you again, since we last talked by way of email recently.
Relative to the above, I find your letter above to be an intriguing, interesting occurrence indeed, since I am certainly aware of so many problems affecting God's Name People (Jehovah's witnesses) these days. But, I do have a couple of questions for you. Tell me, have you received thus far much support or response to your letter from concerned Jehovah's witnesses themselves? Also more importantly, do you feel many Jehovah's witnesses will eventually join you in this special endeavor to notify as many as possible about the true "state of affairs" with the Governing Body of Jehovah's witnesses being the "man of lawlessness," in fulfillment of bible prophecy?
Thanks for your response in advance, agape,
Patrick
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Cecilia
User Senior Boarder
Posts: 15
Re:Babylon the Great - 2005/10/30 12:25Hi Patrick,
May I ask are you associated with the friends at Living Waters?
Christian love, Cecilia
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Patrick
User Junior Boarder
Posts: 9
Re:Babylon the Great - 2005/10/30 12:54Cecilia wrote: Hi Patrick,
May I ask are you associated with the friends at Living Waters?
Christian love, Cecilia
Hi Cecilia,
Yes, I am a member of Living Waters and I am happy you asked me. Coming this spring, I will be a member of Living Waters for two years.
I would like to welcome you to visit our web site called Crossing Euphrates. Here is the web link that will take you there: http://www.crossingeuphrates.com/
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