Re:The Israel of God - 2005/06/15 22:06Hey Dina, I believe he is away for a while overseas although he said he would be checking in. So I am sure if you post a reply he will see it.
Thank you Dina for all your posts
Much love and spirit
Admin
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ablebodiedman
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Posts: 353
Re:The Israel of God - 2005/06/16 05:40RR wrote: Hi Dina,
Well you know as well as I do, that I am pro-Israel. This was one of the subjects that led me out of the Watchtower Society. I read C.T. Russell’s “The Restoration of Israel” and thought “wow, it makes so much sense.” And of course looking back and reading all those insane replacement theology thoughts of the Society, I could kick myself in the head for believing it.
And while I believe that the Jews are God’s people, I would have to disagree with some of your scriptural interpretations, which you apply solely to them.
RR
Hello RR,
Is that RR from The Bible Students?
The replacement theology I think is valid however, I believe there will be a replacement of the replacement theology.
A double whammy so to speak which, is supported by the scriptures in Romans that Wuji quoted above and also in Ezekiel Chapter 36.
I strongly recommend that you now read Ezekiel Chapter 36 with a reversal or substitution of the replacement theology in mind.
Here are just a few scriptures from there which make me think:
Ezekiel 36:2
2 This is what the Sovereign Lord Jehovah has said: “For the reason that the enemy has said against YOU, ‘Aha! Even the high places of old time—as a possession it has become ours!’”’
I think the enemy being referred to in the above scripture are the Gentile Christians, yep, thats us, the ones responsible for the replacement theology.
I am just going to quote a small portion of verse 3 which seems to be a blatant reference to the replacement theology:
Ezekiel 36:3 portion
in order for YOU to become a possession to the remaining ones of the nations and YOU continue being talked about with the tongue and there is a bad report among people, 4 therefore, O mountains of Israel, hear the word of the Sovereign Lord Jehovah
The mountains of Israel a possession of the remaining ones of the Nations !
I am convinced that Jehovah is speaking directly to our notion of the replacement theology in the above.
It is verse 5 where we get a taste of what Jehovah will soon have in store for those who believe the replacement theology might prevail.
Ezekiel 36:5
5 therefore this is what the Sovereign Lord Jehovah has said, ‘Certainly in the fire of my zeal I will speak against the remaining ones of the nations and against E´dom, all of it, those who have given my land to themselves as a possession with the rejoicing of all the heart, with scorn in [the] soul, for the sake of its pasture ground [and] for the plunder.’”’
I think that a lot of self important Gentile Christians will be in for a big surprise.
Read the rest of Chapter 36 to see what happens and let me know what you think.
Regards
ablebodiedman
Post edited by: ablebodiedman, at: 2005/06/16 05:47
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Flowerchild
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Posts: 55
Re:The Israel of God - 2005/06/17 11:49I so much enjoyed reading this thread and would really like to concentrate on learning more about Israel,
when Dina brought up the scripture about how Jah feels about Israel his people and how he would never abandon them and that their names would be tatooed in Jahs palms....etc well its just beautiful to picture, so encouraging
there is a scripture that says when we start to think we know it, well we really don't, ....I have found this to be so with myself looking at things that only a few months ago thought I had correct understanding., but now that I have gone past the boundaries set by the WTBTS, I'm growing and learning, and its wonderful to know that we don't have understanding of all things and the answers to all things, as the Society would have ones think, and what they have taught us can be understood a different way, but we are all united in love for the Father and the son
the one thing we can know and understand, and there is no second guessing or speculating about, and that is Jesus and Him dying for the whole world of sinners.
much peace
Sandra
I would also like to add when the experts , that is the Jewish scholars who translate the bibles and the meanings will sit and argue over where a comma goes in the bible for years, now think of this... when the experts can't agree...well
and what really gets me is the WTBTS thinks everything they say is absolutely correct and beyond question,s, will they ever get it?
Post edited by: flowerchild, at: 2005/06/17 11:57
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polemotheos
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Posts: 530
Re:The Israel of God - 2006/03/15 10:34this is a repeat of wuji's words... I add a little more to it...
Who is the prophetic Israel of God?
Many "christian's" teach that the Israel of God is the fleshly Israel. Hense this is one of the reasons this country supports the Jews today. They think they are helping to fullfill prophecy.
Regarding replacement theology, we need to keep in mind that much of the apostle Paul’s writing is exactly that. Reading Hebrews and much of Romans reeks of replacement theology. You can imagine some die-hard Jews reading Paul’s letters and scoffing that he is just spiritualizing old testament scripture. The difference of course is that Paul was applying OT prophecy and scripture to the Christian congregation in the 1st century and that was entirely justified, Paul being an apostle writing under divine inspiration. So there is a big difference between the ‘replacement theology’ of the new testament and what JW’s do today. Still, the ‘replacement theology’ that Paul applied to anointed Christians in his time equally applies to anointed Christians today. Of course it would be presumptuous for anyone to pick OT scripture and apply it to themselves or any other religious organization (WTS and E-watchman style) today beyond what Paul and the other NT writers did, because no one today can claim to be under inspiration to do that. However that doesn’t mean that much OT scripture that Paul didn’t ‘spiritualise’ may well still have a modern day fulfillment and application to the modern day anointed Christian congregation, where-ever that exists. The word of God is alive and is powerful, and I think only a fool would consign OT scripture as having application to the past and to the 1st century congregation only. My feeling is that on the other side of Armageddon everyone will be stunned at learning how much OT prophesy remained to be fulfilled.
Regarding the popular notion that the Israelites are still God’s favoured people, the apostle Paul went to great pains to explain that they no longer are. It’s hard to see when you read his words how he could have explained it any better. Those that dish up the old excuse that because Jehovah promised that he will never forget Israel and his promises to them apply forever seem to be forgetting the whole thrust of Paul's message when he talks about this very thing. Paul is absolutely ‘spiritualising’, if you want to use that word, these promises of God and saying that they have transferred over to the Christian congregation! With his superb legal mind he explains clearly to the reader how the old arrangement, the old covenant, has been completely replaced, and how this in fact was prophesied to occur.
Heres a snapshot of the most salient and relevant scriptures on the Jewish question. You've read them all before, but I'm repeating them here just for convenience sake. I can't see how anyone could read them any other way than to be saying that the Jews have no special place any longer in God's purposes merely because of their nationality. The old covenants are long gone and God has no legal contract or obligations to the Jewish race any more. I accept what Paul was getting at, and I think it is in fact one of the greatest insights the JW's have ever had.
Rom 9: 6 However, <b>it is not as though the word of God had failed</b>. For not all who [spring] from Israel are really “Israel.” 7 Neither because they are Abraham’s seed are they all children, but: “What will be called ‘your seed’ will be through Isaac.” 8 That is, <b>the children in the flesh are not really the children of God, but the children by the promise are counted as the seed</b>.
ROM 11: 1 I ask, then, <b>God did not reject his people, did he? Never may that happen!</b> For I also am an Israelite, of the seed of Abraham, of the tribe of Benjamin. 2 <b>God did not reject his people</b>, whom he first recognized. Why, do YOU not know what the Scripture says in connection with E·li´jah, as he pleads with God against Israel? 3 “Jehovah, they have killed your prophets, they have dug up your altars, and I alone am left, and they are looking for my soul.” 4 Yet, what does the divine pronouncement say to him? “I have left seven thousand men over for myself, [men] who have not bent the knee to Ba´al.” 5 <b>In this way, therefore, at the present season also a remnant has turned up according to a choosing due to undeserved kindness</b>. 25 For I do not want YOU, brothers, to be ignorant of this sacred secret, in order for YOU not to be discreet in your own eyes: that a dulling of sensibilities has happened in part to Israel <b>until the full number of people of the nations has come in, 26 and in this manner all Israel will be saved.</b>
GAL 6: 15 For neither is circumcision anything nor is uncircumcision, but a new creation [is something]. 16 And all those who will walk orderly by this rule of conduct, upon them be peace and mercy, even upon the Israel of God.
(Paul here is saying that even Jews, ‘the Israel of God’ can have God’s peace and mercy, ie, fleshly Jews can still enter into the new covenant despite their old covenant no longer existing).
HEB 8 for he does find fault with the people when he says: “‘Look! There are days coming,’ says Jehovah, ‘and <b>I will conclude with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah a new covenant</b>; 9 not according to the covenant that I made with their forefathers in [the] day of my taking hold of their hand to bring them forth out of the land of Egypt, because they did not continue in my covenant, so that I stopped caring for them,’ says Jehovah.” 10 “‘For this is the covenant that I shall covenant with the house of Israel after those days,’ says Jehovah. ‘I will put my laws in their mind, and in their hearts I shall write them. And I will become their God, and they themselves will become my people. 11 “‘And they will by no means teach each one his fellow citizen and each one his brother, saying: “Know Jehovah!” For they will all know me, from [the] least one to [the] greatest one of them. 12 For I shall be merciful to their unrighteous deeds, and I shall by no means call their sins to mind anymore.’” 13 <b>In his saying “a new [covenant]” he has made the former one obsolete. Now that which is made obsolete and growing old is near to vanishing away. </b>
Who did Jehovah conclude a new covenant with? He says he would create it with 'house of Israel', but as we all know, it was concluded with anyone from any nationality that became a born again Christian. Yes, this is replacement theology! Many prophesies that were given to the ancient Israelites were transferred and fulfilled in the anointed Christian congregation, like it or not.
The prophetic Israel of God are those that will become kings and priests in heaven. The majority of mankind will be benificiaries of that kingdom enjoying paradise on earth.
(1 Peter 2:9) . . .But YOU are “a chosen race, a royal priesthood, a holy nation, a people for special possession, that YOU should declare abroad the excellencies” of the one that called YOU out of darkness into his wonderful light.
Re:The Israel of God - 2006/04/03 10:27Many "christian's" teach that the Israel of God is the fleshly Israel. Hense this is one of the reasons this country supports the Jews today. They think they are helping to fullfill prophecy.
Had you actually understood what I wrote, you would have understood I did not mean that the Israel of God is "fleshly" Israel in the sense they are unbelieving Jews. The Israel of God is a spiritual Israel made up of believing Christians.
Dina
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polemotheos
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Posts: 530
Re:The Israel of God - 2006/04/03 23:46DxSharpe wrote: Many "christian's" teach that the Israel of God is the fleshly Israel. Hense this is one of the reasons this country supports the Jews today. They think they are helping to fullfill prophecy. Had you actually understood what I wrote, you would have understood I did not mean that the Israel of God is "fleshly" Israel in the sense they are unbelieving Jews. The Israel of God is a spiritual Israel made up of believing Christians.
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