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Re:The Israel of God - 2005/04/24 16:20 LOL.........................sorry, kidding .........

Hmmmm, this subject is of real interest to me. Dina, thanks for you initial comments, interesting...its funny, I never realized there was a 'replacment theology' - never considered 'spiritual Israel' to be anything other than the Christian Congregation. (A sheltered JW life!!) But I am open to hear out the reasoning to counter it.

Correct me if Im wrong, there is only one occurance of the phrase 'Israel of God' in the scriptures (NWT) and there are none of the phrase 'Spiritual Israel'. The one mention of the 'Israel of God' is in Galatians. IMO, in Galatians Paul explains very clearly who the 'seed' of Abraham is (ie the Israel of God) - specifically it is Jesus, but there is also those who, by faith in Christ, have become heirs with him of the promise - neither Jew nor Greek, man or woman - all are one in the Christ.

Therefore, ANY one who hears the good news and puts faith in it, becomes adopted into the 'Israel of God' - the holy nation of king/priests.

Am I missing something?
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Re:The Israel of God - 2005/05/12 19:25 Man alive what is with all the Fluffy talk on the previous page harden up.

Hey just a thought What is the Job that these chosen ones have?
Why do they have this job?

So if this is thier JOB then how can they do it if they havent expereince all aspects of life?

Thus leading to the point that Jehovah must choose carefully who he chooses and what life course they have taken. Thus we are lead to think that these ones are oick from all aspect of life maybe not your typical run o da mill christians

What u think.

servent1
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Re:The Israel of God - 2005/05/13 02:44 Hi Dina,

Well you know as well as I do, that I am pro-Israel. This was one of the subjects that led me out of the Watchtower Society. I read C.T. Russell’s “The Restoration of Israel” and thought “wow, it makes so much sense.” And of course looking back and reading all those insane replacement theology thoughts of the Society, I could kick myself in the head for believing it.

And while I believe that the Jews are God’s people, I would have to disagree with some of your scriptural interpretations, which you apply solely to them.

RR
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Re:The Israel of God - 2005/05/28 20:32 Regarding replacement theology, we need to keep in mind that much of the apostle Paul’s writing is exactly that. Reading Hebrews and much of Romans reeks of replacement theology. You can imagine some die-hard Jews reading Paul’s letters and scoffing that he is just spiritualizing old testament scripture. The difference of course is that Paul was applying OT prophecy and scripture to the Christian congregation in the 1st century and that was entirely justified, Paul being an apostle writing under divine inspiration. So there is a big difference between the ‘replacement theology’ of the new testament and what JW’s do today. Still, the ‘replacement theology’ that Paul applied to anointed Christians in his time equally applies to anointed Christians today. Of course it would be presumptuous for anyone to pick OT scripture and apply it to themselves or any other religious organization (WTS and E-watchman style) today beyond what Paul and the other NT writers did, because no one today can claim to be under inspiration to do that. However that doesn’t mean that much OT scripture that Paul didn’t ‘spiritualise’ may well still have a modern day fulfillment and application to the modern day anointed Christian congregation, where-ever that exists. The word of God is alive and is powerful, and I think only a fool would consign OT scripture as having application to the ancient Israelites and/or to the 1st century congregation only. My feeling is that on the other side of Armageddon everyone will be stunned at learning how much OT prophesy remained to be fulfilled.

Regarding the popular notion that the Israelites are still God’s favoured people, the apostle Paul went to great pains to explain that they no longer are. It’s hard to see when you read his words how he could have explained it any better. Those that dish up the old excuse that because Jehovah promised that he will never forget Israel and his promises to them apply forever seem to be forgetting the whole thrust of Paul's message when he talks about this very thing. Paul is absolutely ‘spiritualising’, if you want to use that word, these promises of God and saying that they have transferred over to the Christian congregation! With his superb legal mind he explains clearly to the reader how the old arrangement, the old covenant, has been completely replaced, and how this in fact was prophesied to occur.

Heres a snapshot of the most salient and relevant scriptures on the Jewish question. You've read them all before, but I'm repeating them here just for convenience sake. I can't see how anyone could read them any other way than to be saying that the Jews have no special place any longer in God's purposes merely because of their nationality. The old covenants are long gone and God has no legal contract or obligations to the Jewish race any more. I accept what Paul was getting at, and I think it is in fact one of the greatest insights the JW's have ever had.

Rom 9: 6 However, it is not as though the word of God had failed. For not all who [spring] from Israel are really “Israel.” 7 Neither because they are Abraham’s seed are they all children, but: “What will be called ‘your seed’ will be through Isaac.” 8 That is, the children in the flesh are not really the children of God, but the children by the promise are counted as the seed.

ROM 11: 1 I ask, then, God did not reject his people, did he? Never may that happen! For I also am an Israelite, of the seed of Abraham, of the tribe of Benjamin. 2 God did not reject his people, whom he first recognized. Why, do YOU not know what the Scripture says in connection with E·li´jah, as he pleads with God against Israel? 3 “Jehovah, they have killed your prophets, they have dug up your altars, and I alone am left, and they are looking for my soul.” 4 Yet, what does the divine pronouncement say to him? “I have left seven thousand men over for myself, [men] who have not bent the knee to Ba´al.” 5 In this way, therefore, at the present season also a remnant has turned up according to a choosing due to undeserved kindness. 25 For I do not want YOU, brothers, to be ignorant of this sacred secret, in order for YOU not to be discreet in your own eyes: that a dulling of sensibilities has happened in part to Israel until the full number of people of the nations has come in, 26 and in this manner all Israel will be saved.

GAL 6: 15 For neither is circumcision anything nor is uncircumcision, but a new creation [is something]. 16 And all those who will walk orderly by this rule of conduct, upon them be peace and mercy, even upon the Israel of God.

(Paul here is saying that even Jews, ‘the Israel of God’ can have God’s peace and mercy, ie, fleshly Jews can still enter into the new covenant despite their old covenant no longer existing).

HEB 8 for he does find fault with the people when he says: “‘Look! There are days coming,’ says Jehovah, ‘and I will conclude with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah a new covenant; 9 not according to the covenant that I made with their forefathers in [the] day of my taking hold of their hand to bring them forth out of the land of Egypt, because they did not continue in my covenant, so that I stopped caring for them,’ says Jehovah.” 10 “‘For this is the covenant that I shall covenant with the house of Israel after those days,’ says Jehovah. ‘I will put my laws in their mind, and in their hearts I shall write them. And I will become their God, and they themselves will become my people. 11 “‘And they will by no means teach each one his fellow citizen and each one his brother, saying: “Know Jehovah!” For they will all know me, from [the] least one to [the] greatest one of them. 12 For I shall be merciful to their unrighteous deeds, and I shall by no means call their sins to mind anymore.’” 13 In his saying “a new [covenant]” he has made the former one obsolete. Now that which is made obsolete and growing old is near to vanishing away.

Who did Jehovah conclude a new covenant with? He says he would create it with the 'house of Israel', but as we all know, it was concluded with anyone from any nationality that became a born again Christian. Yes, this is replacement theology! Many prophesies that were given to the ancient Israelites were transferred and fulfilled in the anointed Christian congregation.

Warm regards to all
Wuji

Post edited by: Wuji, at: 2005/05/30 10:44
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Re:The Israel of God - 2005/05/28 21:23 Well done Wuju Your Peace, Surrender, In You,
YHVH Re-connect Co-operative
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Re:The Israel of God - 2005/06/15 11:13 Is Wuji still around? I'd like to reply to this but my time is so limited I don't want to do it if he isn't still posting here.

Thanks,
Dina
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