Re:Christianity - 2006/01/03 18:45Well, my version of Christianity is Rationalistic, and I believe in the Immanence of God.
Every aspect of my beliefs can either be proven necessarily and or sufficiently through empirical science. Equally every aspect of my beliefs can either be proven to be explicitly and or implicitly taught in the Bible.
(2 Timothy 3:16-17) "All Scripture is inspired of God and beneficial for teaching, for reproving, for setting things straight, for disciplining in righteousness, that the man of God may be fully competent, completely equipped for every good work."
"It is very pious to say and prudent to affirm that the holy Bible can never speak untruth -- whenever its true meaning is understood. But I believe nobody will deny that it is often very abstruse, and may say things which are quite different from what its bare words signify." - Galileo Galilei
Reason must be used to understand anything. It is not enough to say "the bible says this and the bible says that" we must actually <b>understand</b> what it says. Those who disagree with this fundamental principle have no problem believing two contradictory ideas at the same time. In which case there is little point in proving the illogic of an idea they hold because it never took logic or reason for them to hold the belief in the first place.
"Rationalism may signify confidence in the intelligible, orderly character of the world and in the mind's ability to discern such order. ["For God is [a God], not of disorder..."(1 Corinthians 14:33)] It is opposed by irrationalism, a view that either denies meaning and coherence in reality or discredits the ability of reason to discern such coherence... In religion, rationalism is the view that recognizes as true only that content of faith that can be made to appeal to reason." - http://www.answers.com/rationalism Rationalism
"I have found no better expression than 'religious' for confidence in the rational nature of reality, insofar as it is accessible to human reason. Whenever this feeling is absent, science degenerates into uninspired empiricism." - Einstein
"Science can only be created by those who are thoroughly imbued with the aspiration toward truth and understanding. This source of feeling, however, springs from the sphere of religion. To this there also belongs the faith in the possibility that the regulations valid for the world of existence are rational, that is, comprehensible to reason. I cannot conceive of a genuine scientist without that profound faith. The situation may be expressed by an image: science without religion is lame, religion without science is blind." - Einstein
"Every one who is seriously involved in the pursuit of science becomes convinced that a spirit is manifest in the laws of the Universe--a spirit vastly superior to that of man, and one in the face of which we with our modest powers must feel humble. In this way the pursuit of science leads to a religious feeling of a special sort, which is indeed quite different from the religiosity of someone more naive." - Einstein
"This deep intuitive conviction of the existence of a higher power of thought which manifests itself in the inscrutable universe represents the content of my definition of God." - Einstein
(Hebrews 11:1)
"Now faith is the substantiating of things hoped for, the conviction of things not seen." - Darby
"Now faith is the grounds of things, which are hoped for, and the euidence of things which are not seene." - Geneva
Please notice that without substantiation and evidence there is no faith. The Greek word here translated "faith" is pistis, it means; persuasion, credence, conviction, or simply belief. Our beliefs must be based of things which are proven!
Paul argues this in another way;
'What may be known about God is manifest because God made it manifest. His invisible [qualities], even his eternal power and Godship, are <b>clearly seen</b> from the world's creation onward, because they are <b>perceived</b> by the things made.' (Romans 1:19-20)
(Acts 17:28) "For by him we have life and move and exist, even as certain ones of the poets among YOU have said, 'For we are also his progeny.'"
Please note that the apostle Paul here quotes and espouses the doctrine of God's Immanence from the text of Stoic philosophers;
(Epimenides' Cretica 'Cretan') "Thou livest and abidest forever, <b>for in thee we live and move and have our being</b>." Paul himself calls Epimenides a "prophet" (Titus 1:12).
(Cleanthes' Hymn to Zeus) "<b>For we are Thy offspring</b>, taking the image only of Thy voice, as many mortal things as live and move upon the earth."
(Aratus' Phænomena 'Natural Appearances') "For every street, every market-place is full of Zeus. Even the sea and the harbour are full of this deity. Everywhere everyone is indebted to Zeus. <b>For we are indeed his offspring</b>."
Consider Jeremiah, for he shares similar expressions as Aratus;
(Jeremiah 23:24) "Or can any man be concealed in places of concealment and I myself not see him?" is the utterance of Jehovah. "Is it not <b>the heavens and the earth</b> that <b>I myself actually fill</b>?" is the utterance of Jehovah.
Is the apostle Paul correct in his belief of an Immanent, Eternal, All-power-ful, Omnipresent, Being who is "clearly seen" and "manifest" to us by the physical realities we perceive?
Consider the material universe. It is generally held that the material universe (as we know it; with galaxies, stars and planetary systems) at one time did not exist.
Yet, the substance of what comprises the material universe (specifically energy) has been shown in experiments to be uncreatedable and indestructible. We have come to call this phenomenon the first Law of Physics; the law of conservation of energy.
Besides this, it logically follows that all things are made of something (once again, energy), and that nothing can be made from nothing. "Nothing" does not involve existence, it does not exist in reality. So what does exist, the substance of existence must necessarily be omnipresent. These observations also require that the substance of existence be uncreatable and indestructible.
The transformation of energy is power. All power involves the transformation of energy. Therefore energy is integrally all power-ful.
These facts alone make energy ubiquitous, eternal, and formable.
Now for there to exist an eternal, all powerful, omnipresent being such as God, either God is energy or God is co-eternal, co-all powerful, co-omnipresent with energy, which is absurd. Therefore God is energy and necessarily exists.
Another proof, consider the second law of physics;
Transformation of Energy (Power, Thought); Whenever an energy distribution is out of equilibrium a force (the gradient of a potential) exists which causes <b>ordering of formations of energy</b> that increase dissipation or minimize the force. Whenever an energy distribution is in equilibrium it causes all ordered formations of energy to transform toward a state of inert uniformity. http://www.entropylaw.com/
Max Planck said "All matter originates and exists only by virtue of a force which brings the particle of an atom to vibration and holds... the atom together. We must assume behind this force the existence of a conscious and intelligent Mind. This Mind is the matrix of all matter."
From the second Law we see that every force is caused by a power, thought of God, continuous transformation of energy, which is able to maintain ordered formations of energy. Hence without the Mind of God holding matter together it would transform toward inert uniformity or in other words, dematerialize. Equally it could not have formed without the Intellect of God in the first place. And every ordered formation of matter is maintained, dissolved, or created by the same means from a higher ordered process.
Another proof, consider intelligent design;
<b>The composition, geometry and arrangement of parts of objects intelligently designed do not form from insensate phenomena</b>.
For example; a <b>simple</b> NOT complex; stop sign. The composition of a stop sign is usually some carbon steel with red and white paint. The geometry is a particularly thin sheet of uniform thickness in a perfect octagon.
Ask yourself this straightforward question; Can a stop sign form from insensate phenomena? For example; are there any volcanoes spewing out 2000 plus fereheight carbon steel in perfect geometries of thin sheet octagons? If so, is there any process that can place petro-chemical paints in unsmeared perfect shapes onto one of the objects sides?
The answer is no, it cannot form from any insensate phenomena we know of. Some nihilistic sophists would argue; it can form from insensate phenomena we have no knowledge of because we do not have absolute knowledge of all things. Pragmatically speaking, this level of criticism makes all beliefs unprovable assumptions because any belief can be countered from the ignorance of possibilities imagined. No matter how unrealistic. That sort of ignorance belongs to the idiocy hall of fame. Stop signs do not and never will form from insensate phenomena. It is as simple as that.
I have sufficiently proven that something can be intelligently designed. We did not arise from an accident of God's nature. For NO theory of life arising from insensate phenomena nor macro evolution assessed through mathematical or computational biology has been substantiated. The likelihood of the formation of living organisms from insensate phenomena has been demonstrated to be grossly negligible. (see calculations and quotes in my blog called "intelligent design")
Nobel laureate Francis Crick, evolutionist and co-discoverer of the DNA structure, stated, "An honest man, armed with all the knowledge available to us now, could only state that in some sense, the origin of life appears at the moment to be almost a miracle,"
Intelligent design holds the statistical complement of life arising from insensate phenomena; In other words, we can say with <b>certainty</b> there is a Creator.
(1) God is defined in the bible as an infinite (eternal, omnipresent,..etc), and all powerful being; (Does such an entity really exist?)
(2) All in existence is essentially energy which implies infinite (eternal, omnipresent,...etc) energy is existence.
Note: Some assume that space is "nothing"; How can "nothing" pertain to existence? Nothing does not exist in reality. Space is in fact a fabric that can be warped... All forms of energy (inertial mass) are the result of forming from this fabric finite modes which produce an elastic warping of space we call gravity. Space does not have a definite finite form though it does have an infinite gradient curvature associated with the finite modes made from it. Space is the same substance as all forms of energy... including matter.
(3) Gradient energy involves all power which implies energy is integrally all powerful.
(4) Infinite energy that's integrally all powerful is existence and God is defined in the bible as infinite and all powerful being. These are true statements.
(5) In union with (4); Wherefore energy is not in God, nor is energy equivalent to God, which is absurd.
(6) From (4) we infer that energy is in God, or energy is equivalent to God which implies God is existence.
Note; It may be more correctly interpreted that energy or God is not in the subset of existence. Rather God or energy holds union with or is existence. Does existence exist? Certainly not in the same sense that a thing in the subset of existence, exists.
(7) Logos is a subset of the infinite being which implies gradient power (creation) was on purpose.
Here is the key; <img src="http://polemotheos.home.comcast.net/Godlycalc_html_m1adaae88.gif">
One of the most methodical proofs of God's existence is found in the work of Spinoza's ethics; http://www.answers.com/spinoza
PROP. XVI. From the necessity of the divine nature must follow an infinite number of things in infinite ways--that is, all things which can fall within the sphere of infinite intellect.
PROP. XXXV. God loves himself with an infinite intellectual love.
Your welcome to investigate the full proofs yourself. The only addition I would make to Spinoza's work is that regarding Jesus; For Spinoza was a Jew and therefore lacked certain understanding that is grasped only through Jesus.
For example in my propositional calculus on equation seven;
Logos is the only begotten of the infinite being. In other words Jesus is the only creation which follows exclusively from the necessity of God's nature. All subsequent creation was produced through this mode who is an intelligent being who acts on purpose; for he is not infinite nor all powerful hence, pursues things and lives on purpose. From the necessity of God's nature a finite intelligent being was created who himself creates on purpose. Therefore God is the cause of the purpose of creation from the necessity of his nature.
The reason this is relevant is because some who have contemplated the infinite being have suggested the characteristics of a personal God found in the bible cannot be attributed to this being. That is God cannot become finite, nor can he act in any way except through necessity. So it is through Jesus that the characteristics of a personal God are validated. Jesus was the one who walked with Adam in the garden of Eden. It is Jesus who can have finite form and act on purpose.
Jesus is the foremost transformation of God (John 1),
Through Jesus the "master worker" all that we know of was created, first being the angels (grunt labor if you will), who subsequently took part in the creation of the material universe. "When the morning stars joyfully cried out together, And all the sons of God began shouting in applause?" (Job 38:7) (Proverbs 8:30)
The "holy spirit" is the angels! (just as the "wicked spirit" is the demons)
To understand this, meditate on these scriptures;
(1 Corinthians 14:12) So also YOU yourselves, since YOU are zealously desirous of spirits, seek to abound in them for the upbuilding of the congregation.
(1 Corinthians 14:32) And spirits of prophets are subject to prophets
(Hebrews 1:14) Are they not all spirits for public service, sent forth to minister for those who are going to inherit salvation?
(Revelation 22:6) And he said to me: "These words are faithful and true; yes, Jehovah the God of the spirits of the prophets sent his angel forth to show his slaves the things that must shortly take place.
(2 Peter 1:21) For prophecy was at no time brought by man's will, but men spoke from God as they were borne along by holy spirit.
I can show you many scriptures that demonstrate the fact that angels do every single thing the "holy spirit" is said to do and that the quality or character term before or after the term spirit indicates the nature or purpose of the spirit(s) activity.
Let me say this again; The angels are the holy spirit. The holy spirit is nothing else except the angels!
Our life is both materially as well as spiritually, symbiotic; That is we are all ONE together with God, Jesus, the angels, and even other material organisms.
We cannot materially live without the symbiotic organisms in our body. We share a similar existence with all other existing beings;
That is we are the material expression of God. What we create is through God and by God.
Who really created the Universe? God? Jesus? the angels?... The answer is we are all one. We are all just different modes and expression of the ONE God.
Just as God begot lots of stuff and Jesus, Jesus begot lots of stuff and angels, angels begot lots of stuff and humans, humans begot lots of stuff and computers?, computers begot lots of stuff and ?????.
Yet this is all the creation by God.
My latest studies are on prayer; scientifically speaking prayer is a form of self-hypnosis. But I am desirous of learning how to access exterior manifest reality. I have already learned how to control groups of cells in my body to a small degree. I am wondering if exterior manifest reality can only be accessed through the angels in some sort of symbiotic communication.
(Genesis 1:21) "And God proceeded to create the great reptiles..." <img src="http://www.s8int.com/images/palestrina2.gif">
The dragons or dinos existed before the flood and possibly some even after it; I do not believe dino blood cells, blood vessels, and connective tissue could last 68 <b>MILLION</b> years. A few thousand years, maybe.
The children of the angels are the neanderthal (Genesis 6); We existed before them, they have larger brain cavities, stronger muscles, they were cannibalistic and very violent, their mtDNA demonstrates we did not or could not productively mate with them, nor did we 'evolve' from them. And pragmatically speaking we would have evolved to them because they were superior in every physical way. They all died off "some how" which is clearly explained by the flood;
http://bric.users.ftech.net/rp.no38.html Children of the angels <img src="http://msnbcmedia.msn.com/j/msnbc/Components/Photos/050310/neanderthal.widec.jpg"> The Neanderthal skeleton, at left, is compared with a human skeleton. http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/8486399/ Source <img src="http://tonyrogers.com/news/images/neanderthal_skull_220.jpg"><img src="http://tonyrogers.com/news/images/human_skull_220.jpg">
God destroyed the children of the angels on October 31, or November 1 by global flood. Hollows Eve, All saints day, and All souls day come from the original demonic commemoration of there children's death. "many of these customs predate Christianity, going back to Celtic practices associated with Nov. 1... Witches and other evil spirits were believed to roam the earth on this evening, playing tricks on human... Bonfires were lit, offerings were made of dainty foods and sweets, and people would disguise themselves as one of the roaming spirits, to avoid demonic persecution." - http://www.answers.com/halloween
(Genesis 7:11) "...in the second month, on the seventeenth day of the month, on this day all the springs of the vast watery deep were broken open and the floodgates of the heavens were opened." "Second month." Following the Exodus from Egypt, when Jehovah gave the Israelites the sacred calendar, this became the eighth month, known as Bul, corresponding to the latter half of October and first half of November.
I am sure there is more... but that should be sufficient for anyone to want further clarification or if they want to disprove my positions.
Re:Christianity - 2006/01/08 12:28All objects have a specific geometry, compisition, and arrangment of parts. Both intelligently designed objects and those that are formed from insensate phenomena have such characteristics.
However for an object to be formed from insensate phenomena there must be an insensate phenomena or group of such phenomena that can produce every characteristic of the object in question on one such object. Otherwise it is intelligently designed.Your Peace, Surrender, In You, YHVH Re-connect Co-operative
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Myndlon
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Re:Christianity - 2006/01/10 07:54All objects have a specific geometry, compisition, and arrangment of parts. Both intelligently designed objects and those that are formed from insensate phenomena have such characteristics.Agreed.
However for an object to be formed from insensate phenomena there must be an insensate phenomena or group of such phenomena that can produce every characteristic of the object in question on one such object. Otherwise it is intelligently designed.Even this is intelligently designed because the rules of the universe (for example the properties of physics) were designed by intelligence. In the creation of the universe these laws of order were created explicitly. So everything that must abide by them is also affected by that order.
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polemotheos
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Re:Christianity - 2006/01/10 08:42Myndlon wrote: All objects have a specific geometry, compisition, and arrangment of parts. Both intelligently designed objects and those that are formed from insensate phenomena have such characteristics.Agreed.
However for an object to be formed from insensate phenomena there must be an insensate phenomena or group of such phenomena that can produce every characteristic of the object in question on one such object. Otherwise it is intelligently designed.Even this is intelligently designed because the rules of the universe (for example the properties of physics) were designed by intelligence. In the creation of the universe these laws of order were created explicitly. So everything that must abide by them is also affected by that order. True; but further ordering requires intelligence just as order in the first place required intelligence. So, insensate phenomena would be any phenomena that follows not from any further ordering or further intelligent design but rather phenomena maintained in intelligent design.
The point is we need to prove intelligent design without presumming intelligent design.
Re:Christianity - 2006/01/10 08:51polemotheos wrote: Myndlon wrote: All objects have a specific geometry, compisition, and arrangment of parts. Both intelligently designed objects and those that are formed from insensate phenomena have such characteristics.Agreed.
However for an object to be formed from insensate phenomena there must be an insensate phenomena or group of such phenomena that can produce every characteristic of the object in question on one such object. Otherwise it is intelligently designed.Even this is intelligently designed because the rules of the universe (for example the properties of physics) were designed by intelligence. In the creation of the universe these laws of order were created explicitly. So everything that must abide by them is also affected by that order. True; but further ordering requires intelligence just as order in the first place required intelligence. So, insensate phenomena would be any phenomena that follows not from any further ordering or further intelligent design but rather phenomena maintained in intelligent design.
The point is we need to prove intelligent design without presumming intelligent design.
God bless,
Mars Let me see I can say this in a rational way.
Insensate phenomena can produce ordering. However this ordering is only in set bounds of previous intelligent design.
So, I am sure I could say this in a clearer way. But I hope you understand what I am say.
Re:Christianity - 2006/01/11 15:41Hey do you all find it intresting that when we examine "evidence" for abiogenesis and macroevolution atheists must appeal to ignorance to explain the phenomenon's formation were as I can show each and every phenomena in biology follows exactly as expected from intelligent design?
From genetic instence morphology to inheretence and organizms sharing many of the same coding for similar needs.
Intelligently designed programming languages have instence morphology and inheretence. And engineering practice utilizes methods or circuits in various ways but in different implimentations or designs to accomplish similar tasks.
Atheists appeal to ignorance.... theists appeal to intelligence. One is possible the other is probable. This is why intelligent design if stated properly will always be the rational understanding of reality.Your Peace, Surrender, In You, YHVH Re-connect Co-operative
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