Stormy
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For Eden Romans 9 - 2005/02/19 20:21
In verses 1-5, Paul observes and bemoans the fact that not all [spiritual] Israelites accept the truth. I am telling the truth in Christ; I am not lying, since my conscience bears witness with me in holy spirit, that I have great grief and unceasing pain in my heart. For I could wish that I myself were separated as the cursed one from the Christ in behalf of my brothers, my relatives according to the [figurative] flesh, who, as such, are Israelites, to whom belong the adoption as sons and the glory and the covenants and the giving of the Law and the sacred service and the promises; to whom the forefathers belong [figuratively speaking] and from whom the Christ [sprang] according to the flesh: God, who is over all, [be] blessed forever. Amen. Figuratively speaking, the Christian congregation is comprised of ‘fleshly’ brothers and sisters, inasmuch as they claim a common inheritance, and a common master, Christ. Today, much of the household of spiritual Israelites are ‘separated as the cursed one from the Christ’; despite their claim to the adoption as sons, or their claim to be ‘related’ in the faith with such ones; this ‘birthright’ is going unfulfilled. This fact justifies this question: how can the seed of Abraham fail to receive the promised blessing?
I guess my first question would be is why the brackets and inserting a meaning which Paul did not intend? For instance,
my relatives according to the [figurative] flesh
It doesn't say figurative flesh so why put that there? You also put in brackets [spiritual] before Israel when the context doesn't allow for it. What you call "spiritual Israel" ie; the Christian Congregation was not given the Law. Israel (ancient Israel) was. Paul said that for a reason and I believe it's important in identifying what Israel Paul is speaking of.
All those things do belong to Israel, the adoption as sons, the promises, the giving of the Law, sacred service, and the promises. Gentiles share in those spiritual blessings with Israel.
(NKJV) Romans 15:27 It pleased them indeed, and they are their debtors. For if the Gentiles have been partakers of their spiritual things, their duty is also to minister to them in material things.
Anticipating this question Paul says in verses 6, 7- “However, it is not as though the word of God had failed.” Is this the predicament we find ourselves in? Because we see the failings and apostasy of the leaders and members of the congregation, do we start doubting the word of God? How do we reconcile this sad situation? Paul answers, “For not all who [spring] from [spiritual] Israel are really “[spiritual] Israel.”
It doesn't say spiritual Israel though. You added that. Again, context doesn't allow for it. This chapter is speaking of national election and Jehovah's sovereignty. It has zero do with the WT or JW's.
6 But it is not that the word of God has taken no effect. For they [are] not all Israel who [are] of Israel,
Now, this scripture doesn't say those who are not of Israel are really Israel. It actually states those who are really from Israel are not counted as Israel. This is an exclusion of Israelites from being Israelites not the other way around. Further on ...
7 nor [are they] all children because they are the seed of Abraham; but, "In Isaac your seed shall be called." 8 That is, those who [are] the children of the flesh, these [are] not the children of God; but the children of the promise are counted as the seed.
Here is where it's explained. They may be Abraham's seed but they are not all children of the promise. BUT in Isaac your seed will be called. So it's Isaac's seed that would be considered the children of the promise. Abraham had more than one son but the seed of the other sons would not be the seed carrying the promise. As we read on ...
For this [is] the word of promise: "At this time I will come and Sarah shall have a son." 10 And not only [this,] but when Rebecca also had conceived by one man, [even] by our father Isaac 11 (for [the children] not yet being born, nor having done any good or evil, that the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works but of Him who calls), 12 it was said to her, "The older shall serve the younger." 13 As it is written, "Jacob I have loved, but Esau I have hated."
When Paul says Jacob I have but Esau it is taken from Malachi 1:2-5. In Malachi it is not talking about the men themselves it is talking about the nations they produced. So, this is talking about God's sovereign right to choose a nation to work through. It also cannot be talking about the two men because Esau never served Jacob.
You read on and it talks about how Pharoah would not be allowed to interfere with God's plan towards the nation of Israel. Pharoah was destroying Israel. Jehovah wanted them free. You know the story of Pharoah, Moses, and the red sea I'm sure I don't need to go into that. But was does spiritual Israel have to do with Pharoah? What does spiritual Israel have to do with Esau or Jacob?
I believe the gist of the chapter 1. national election 2. God's sovereignty 3. the Jews believing all Israelites to be saved based on national election even Paul willing to give up his life for his fellow Israelites to be saved 4. And the foreknowledge that not all Israelites would be saved as it is written 27 Isaiah also cries out concerning Israel: "Though the number of the children of Israel be as the sand of the sea, The remnant will be saved.
Romans 9 is RICH in Israelite history. NOT in spiritual Israel history. One could probably write a 1000 page essay just on romans 8-11 alone.
It just doesn't have anything to do with spiritual Israel or JW's as far as I can tell.
Agape,
Stormy
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) Like I said above I would like to mull on this a bit. Thank you too for this material it certainly got me a thinking