Stormy
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Re:For Eden Romans 9 - 2005/03/14 19:46
Hi Stormy,
I’ve just re-read your post. I think we are closer to the same page than we first thought. It seems I have not presented my view accurately.
You said:
I know of that interpretation. In my opinion it feeds into the thinking that Paul was trying to fight against. That being a Jew somehow made them better than gentiles. That's what the whole chapter is about. To say that if you become circumcised in heart it makes you a Jew what you are saying is that being a Jew is better than being a gentile. You are still calling something God made clean unclean.
OK, hang on; Paul said that, didn't he? Ro 2:29 "But he is a Jew who is one on the inside, and [his] circumcision is that of the heart by spirit..." As you said in your original post,
No, I don't believe Paul was saying that a Gentile becomes a spiritual Jew. Only that a Jew would become a spiritual Jew when circumcised in heart. When you say a Gentile becomes a spiritual Jew in effect *I* believe it implies that gentiles are still somehow unclean. When you became a proselyte to Judaism you lost your identity as a gentile and called yourself a Jew. Because gentiles were considered unclean. If you said "I'm a spiritual gentile" does it conjure negative thoughts of uncleaness to you?[/i]
But it is not that the word of God has taken no effect. For they [are] not all Israel who [are] of Israel,
Now, this scripture doesn't say those who are not of Israel are really Israel. It actually states those who are really from Israel are not counted as Israel. This is an exclusion of Israelites from being Israelites not the other way around.
Yes! That is my point too. Just because you have a genealogical heritage back to Abraham doesn’t automatically make you approved. Have I interpreted it correctly?
[b]Well, I would certainly think so. I don't really feel comfortable with being asked if you have interpreted correctly because you could be right and I could be wrong. Or we both could be wrong. Whenever I buttress your position I'm always open to the fact that I could be wrong. Heck, I was a witness I was wrong for years and thought I was dead right lol. IT was a humbling experience.
You said:
A spiritual Jew is a Jew that is a spiritual person. Gentiles don't become Jews. Once one enters into the body of Christ they become spiritual men and women. Nationality is obliterated. It doesn't account for anything. There is neither Jew nor Gentile in the body of Christ.
That is what I meant when I said:
In Romans 2:28,29 - the definition of a Jew is given as a spiritual Jew - or one on the inside. To me, this means: it is of no account what your genealogy is but that your HEART is circumcised, your heart is circumcised when you hear and put faith in the blood of Jesus - this makes you a Jew. (Paul, at this point does not differentiate between spiritual or fleshly but simply says a Jew is one on the inside)
You said:
If there is no Jew nor Gentile in the body of Christ how can one become a spiritual Jew? Romans 1:16 Galatians 3:24-28 Colossians 3:9-11
OK, this is where I have been unclear. IMO, the scriptures refer to ‘the body of Christ’ as a figurative Israel or spiritual Israel. I believe this is what Paul was referring to in Gal 6: 16 – “…the Israel of God.” Earlier in Galatians he was talking about Jesus being THE seed of Abraham, so we that belong to Christ are really Abraham’s seed. Obviously, this is in a figurative/ spiritual sense – of Abraham spiritually speaking; spiritual Israel. So to me, Paul is not referring to fleshly Jews that have circumcised hearts – seeing that there is neither Jew nor Greek…we are all one in Christ. You said, “Gentiles don’t become Jews” but Paul says they do become Abraham’s seed. The Jews are Abraham’s seed, yes?
Yes, they are. However, gentiles are Abraham's seed too. Ten of the twelve tribes of Israel were gentile tribes. So, Abraham's seed includes gentiles. I do think though that Paul was speaking figuratively. Just the same when Jesus told the Pharisees that if God wanted to he could turn the rocks into Abraham's seed. BTW, I SO LOVED IT WHEN HE SAID THAT. Capowi! Right in the chops of those mean old Pharisees.
You said:
Is God just a God of the Jews and spiritual Jews? No, the scriptures do not convey that idea. God is a God of the Jews and Gentiles. Romans 3:29
As you said, the thinking Paul was fighting against was that the Jews were somehow better than everyone else. That is right, Gentiles as well as Jews can be ‘of Christ’ – Abraham’s seed. That IMO, is the point of Ro 3: 29. We are on the same page I think.
You said:
If you go to Romans 3 it speaks of Abraham and his circumcision of the heart. Abraham was not a Jew. Nor was he a spiritual Jew. Our hearts can be circumcised and that makes us spiritual people but it does not in anyway give us a spiritual ethnic identity.
Here, Paul is highlighting the importance of faith over works. It’s a little off this subject, but one of my favorites too.
You said:
I also do not subscribe to the belief that the promises/prophesies made to fleshly Israel's restoration is somehow transferred to the body of Christ. What some call "spiritual Israel". The restoration prophesies are restoring Israel from apostacy.
This is another topic worth exploring.
You said:
If you're of "spiritual Israel" then there is no need to restore from apostacy. Because if "spiritual Israel" apostacized then they wouldn't be "spiritual Israel". They would be apostates. Apostates are not spiritual people.
What you just said then bears uncanny resemblance to my interpretation of Romans 9; “not all who spring from Israel are really Israel.” The body of Christ today is represented by apostate fakes – of course, they are not really the body of Christ – the faithful (wheat) are scattered among the unfaithful (weeds) in the field of the world.
Right, I understand that concept. I just have a hard time trying to tie that into Romans 9. It's a historical chapter IMHO not a prophetic chapter.
You said:
I don't think that we will come to an agreement on this. We certainly are not on the same page. You could be right and I could be wrong or vice versa or we both could be wrong lol. I do though appreciate that we can discuss these difficult topics without judgment of each other. I hope we can continue to do so.
I think we are closer to the same page than we first thought. Yes, I appreciate being able to discuss this and remain civil too!!
BTW, IMHO, the WT and JW’s are not spiritual Israel – that was the point of my Romans 9 article.
Yes, I understood that. I really am sorry about taking so long to reply to you. I'll try not to do that again. I had actually replied to you a couple of days after you responded but it never posted. I also posted in the humor section and that did not post. But again, I'm very sorry please don't shave my head lol.
Agape,
Stormy
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