Re:For Eden Romans 9 - 2005/03/01 01:05Hi Stormy, I posted this at EW. I expect/hope you have some 'problems' with it, I really want to test this out...
Romans is an interesting book as far as the part Natural Jews and spiritual Jews play in the future. There is much to discuss, Paul is so thourough and detailed and without the aid of God's spirit it is impossible to decipher. As Peter put it, in 2 Peter 3:15,16.
It seems Paul jumps from Jews according to the flesh and Spiritual Jews, and it takes careful and prayerful thought to discern which he is talking about. I am not saying I have figured it all out, but that it takes our serious consideration.
In Romans 2:28,29 - the definition of a Jew is given as a spiritual Jew - or one on the inside. To me, this means: it is of no account what your geneology is but that your HEART is circumcised, your heart is circumcised when you hear and put faith in the blood of Jesus - this makes you a Jew. (Paul, at this point does not differentiate between spiritual or fleshly but simply says a Jew is one on the inside)
Romans 11 - 'He did not reject His people [Jews according to the flesh]' This IMHO applies specifically to the availabilty of Jesus blood for natural Jews - these have not stumbled so that they fell completely. The olive tree these can be grafted back into, is Jesus.
Much has been left out for the sake of brevity, please don't interpret my brevity as flipancy.
So with this point of veiw, I feel all the promises for a restored Israel apply to the conditions the 'Jerusalem Above' will bless the entire earth with. Of course, this would include the physical, geographic location we know as Israel.
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Stormy
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Re:For Eden Romans 9 - 2005/03/01 19:15`````Eden wrote: Hi Stormy, I posted this at EW. I expect/hope you have some 'problems' with it, I really want to test this out...
Romans is an interesting book as far as the part Natural Jews and spiritual Jews play in the future. There is much to discuss, Paul is so thourough and detailed and without the aid of God's spirit it is impossible to decipher. As Peter put it, in 2 Peter 3:15,16.
It seems Paul jumps from Jews according to the flesh and Spiritual Jews, and it takes careful and prayerful thought to discern which he is talking about. I am not saying I have figured it all out, but that it takes our serious consideration.
In Romans 2:28,29 - the definition of a Jew is given as a spiritual Jew - or one on the inside. To me, this means: it is of no account what your geneology is but that your HEART is circumcised, your heart is circumcised when you hear and put faith in the blood of Jesus - this makes you a Jew. (Paul, at this point does not differentiate between spiritual or fleshly but simply says a Jew is one on the inside)
Romans 11 - 'He did not reject His people [Jews according to the flesh]' This IMHO applies specifically to the availabilty of Jesus blood for natural Jews - these have not stumbled so that they fell completely. The olive tree these can be grafted back into, is Jesus.
Much has been left out for the sake of brevity, please don't interpret my brevity as flipancy.
So with this point of veiw, I feel all the promises for a restored Israel apply to the conditions the 'Jerusalem Above' will bless the entire earth with. Of course, this would include the physical, geographic location we know as Israel.
In Romans 2:28,29 - the definition of a Jew is given as a spiritual Jew - or one on the inside. To me, this means: it is of no account what your geneology is but that your HEART is circumcised, your heart is circumcised when you hear and put faith in the blood of Jesus - this makes you a Jew. (Paul, at this point does not differentiate between spiritual or fleshly but simply says a Jew is one on the inside)
I know of that interpretation. In my opinion it feeds into the thinking that Paul was trying to fight against. That being a Jew somehow made them better than gentiles. That's what the whole chapter is about. To say that if you become circumcised in heart it makes you a Jew what you are saying is that being a Jew is better than being a gentile. You are still calling something God made clean unclean. A spiritual Jew is a Jew that is a spiritual person. Gentiles don't become Jews. Once one enters into the body of Christ they become spiritual men and women. Nationality is obliterated. It doesn't account for anything. There is neither Jew nor Gentile in the body of Christ. If there is no Jew nor Gentile in the body of Christ how can one become a spiritual Jew? Romans 1:16 Galatians 3:24-28 Colossians 3:9-11
Is God just a God of the Jews and spiritual Jews? No, the scriptures do not convey that idea. God is a God of the Jews and Gentiles. Romans 3:29
If you go to Romans 3 it speaks of Abraham and his circumcision of the heart. Abraham was not a Jew. Nor was he a spiritual Jew. Our hearts can be circumcised and that makes us spiritual people but it does not in anyway give us a spiritual ethnic identity.
I also do not subscribe to the belief that the promises/prophesies made to fleshly Israel's restoration is somehow transferred to the body of Christ. What some call "spiritual Israel". The restoration prophesies are restoring Israel from apostacy. If you're of "spiritual Israel" then there is no need to restore from apostacy. Because if "spiritual Israel" apostacized then they wouldn't be "spiritual Israel". They would be apostates. Apostates are not spiritual people.
I don't think that we will come to an agreement on this. We certainly are not on the same page. You could be right and I could be wrong or vice versa or we both could be wrong lol. I do though appreciate that we can discuss these difficult topics without judgment of each other. I hope we can continue to do so.
Agape, Stormy
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Eden
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Posts: 195
Re:For Eden Romans 9 - 2005/03/02 09:26Hi Stormy,
Wow! I really enjoyed your post! OK, we're not on the same page, but we're definitely in the same book and probably only a few pages apart!! You have given me something to think about, I will go and have another read.
When you said: I also do not subscribe to the belief that the promises/prophesies made to fleshly Israel's restoration is somehow transferred to the body of Christ. What some call "spiritual Israel". The restoration prophesies are restoring Israel from apostacy. If you're of "spiritual Israel" then there is no need to restore from apostacy. Because if "spiritual Israel" apostacized then they wouldn't be "spiritual Israel". They would be apostates. Apostates are not spiritual people.
So, are you saying fleshly Irsael is yet to be restored, or has already been restored?
As far as this 'spiritual' Israel thing goes, maybe this is a good start point for a discusion. Forgive me, I didn't know there was a dispute over this entity. I know the term 'spiritual Israel' is not in the bible, so it will be good for me to test it out to see if it is correct for me to use it. I think you may be the perfect person to help me be objective in this.
Romans, and Paul's other books are my favourites, it is nice to meet some one who is interested in them.
Eden
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Eden
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Posts: 195
Re:For Eden Romans 9 - 2005/03/02 23:24Hi Stormy,
I’ve just re-read your post. I think we are closer to the same page than we first thought. It seems I have not presented my view accurately.
You said:
I know of that interpretation. In my opinion it feeds into the thinking that Paul was trying to fight against. That being a Jew somehow made them better than gentiles. That's what the whole chapter is about. To say that if you become circumcised in heart it makes you a Jew what you are saying is that being a Jew is better than being a gentile. You are still calling something God made clean unclean.
OK, hang on; Paul said that, didn't he? Ro 2:29 "But he is a Jew who is one on the inside, and [his] circumcision is that of the heart by spirit..." As you said in your original post,
But it is not that the word of God has taken no effect. For they [are] not all Israel who [are] of Israel, Now, this scripture doesn't say those who are not of Israel are really Israel. It actually states those who are really from Israel are not counted as Israel. This is an exclusion of Israelites from being Israelites not the other way around.
Yes! That is my point too. Just because you have a genealogical heritage back to Abraham doesn’t automatically make you approved. Have I interpreted it correctly?
You said:
A spiritual Jew is a Jew that is a spiritual person. Gentiles don't become Jews. Once one enters into the body of Christ they become spiritual men and women. Nationality is obliterated. It doesn't account for anything. There is neither Jew nor Gentile in the body of Christ.
That is what I meant when I said:
In Romans 2:28,29 - the definition of a Jew is given as a spiritual Jew - or one on the inside. To me, this means: it is of no account what your genealogy is but that your HEART is circumcised, your heart is circumcised when you hear and put faith in the blood of Jesus - this makes you a Jew. (Paul, at this point does not differentiate between spiritual or fleshly but simply says a Jew is one on the inside)
You said:
If there is no Jew nor Gentile in the body of Christ how can one become a spiritual Jew? Romans 1:16 Galatians 3:24-28 Colossians 3:9-11
OK, this is where I have been unclear. IMO, the scriptures refer to ‘the body of Christ’ as a figurative Israel or spiritual Israel. I believe this is what Paul was referring to in Gal 6: 16 – “…the Israel of God.” Earlier in Galatians he was talking about Jesus being THE seed of Abraham, so we that belong to Christ are really Abraham’s seed. Obviously, this is in a figurative/ spiritual sense – of Abraham spiritually speaking; spiritual Israel. So to me, Paul is not referring to fleshly Jews that have circumcised hearts – seeing that there is neither Jew nor Greek…we are all one in Christ. You said, “Gentiles don’t become Jews” but Paul says they do become Abraham’s seed. The Jews are Abraham’s seed, yes?
You said:
Is God just a God of the Jews and spiritual Jews? No, the scriptures do not convey that idea. God is a God of the Jews and Gentiles. Romans 3:29
As you said, the thinking Paul was fighting against was that the Jews were somehow better than everyone else. That is right, Gentiles as well as Jews can be ‘of Christ’ – Abraham’s seed. That IMO, is the point of Ro 3: 29. We are on the same page I think.
You said:
If you go to Romans 3 it speaks of Abraham and his circumcision of the heart. Abraham was not a Jew. Nor was he a spiritual Jew. Our hearts can be circumcised and that makes us spiritual people but it does not in anyway give us a spiritual ethnic identity. Here, Paul is highlighting the importance of faith over works. It’s a little off this subject, but one of my favorites too.
You said:
I also do not subscribe to the belief that the promises/prophesies made to fleshly Israel's restoration is somehow transferred to the body of Christ. What some call "spiritual Israel". The restoration prophesies are restoring Israel from apostacy. This is another topic worth exploring.
You said:
If you're of "spiritual Israel" then there is no need to restore from apostacy. Because if "spiritual Israel" apostacized then they wouldn't be "spiritual Israel". They would be apostates. Apostates are not spiritual people.
What you just said then bears uncanny resemblance to my interpretation of Romans 9; “not all who spring from Israel are really Israel.” The body of Christ today is represented by apostate fakes – of course, they are not really the body of Christ – the faithful (wheat) are scattered among the unfaithful (weeds) in the field of the world.
You said:
I don't think that we will come to an agreement on this. We certainly are not on the same page. You could be right and I could be wrong or vice versa or we both could be wrong lol. I do though appreciate that we can discuss these difficult topics without judgment of each other. I hope we can continue to do so.
I think we are closer to the same page than we first thought. Yes, I appreciate being able to discuss this and remain civil too!!
BTW, IMHO, the WT and JW’s are not spiritual Israel – that was the point of my Romans 9 article.
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Epignossis
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Re:For Eden Romans 9 - 2005/03/03 20:19Hey Eden there are some things I would like to add that might help. I don't want to break the dialogue between you and Stormy so I will wait until you two come up for breath.
Much love bro
ePig Knowledge puffs up, but love builds up. If anyone thinks he has acquired knowledge of something, he does not yet know it just as he ought to know it. But if anyone loves God, this one is known by him - 1 Cor 8:1-3
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Eden
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Re:For Eden Romans 9 - 2005/03/03 20:50You are quite welcome to join in bro! I am sure Stormy won't mind
Forum 
I know the term 'spiritual Israel' is not in the bible, so it will be good for me to test it out to see if it is correct for me to use it. I think you may be the perfect person to help me be objective in this.
