The Miraculous Gifts Today. - 2005/02/27 01:30Hi All. There is a running discussion at the moment on a couple of boards regarding the validity of miracles and the operation of the gifts of the spirit at this time, and the meaning of 1 Cor 13:8-12 which speaks of the gifts ceasing. They can be seen here:
I was hoping that we might get some comments here also. So to start the ball rolling here is my take on the verses in 1 Cor 13 which speak of the miraculous gifts sceasing.
I must say I don't know of any Scriptural indication that the miraculous gifts would cease prior to Christ's arrival. So, I tend to believe that they are still available and can be sought. Paul encouraged Christians to "seek" the gifts. So I can understand how not seeking, because of not believing, can mean not finding.
1 Cor 13:8-12. These verses which speak of the gifts ceasing link that ceasing with the arrival of that which is "complete" and Paul tells us that this time had not arrived in his day. Understanding exactly what was then "partial" or incomplete should help us to work out what must come to be "complete", and so when the gifts would cease.
Verses 8 and 9 show that even with the miraculous gifts the spiritual abilities, understanding and knowledge of Christians was "partial" and then he immediately contrasts that with what will someday be "complete", saying that when it arrives "partial" knowledge would cease (along with miraculous gifts) So IMHO, "that which is complete" is to be knowledge, spiritual understanding and power. I don't think any of us have that in any "complete" sense yet. Such completion certainly did not arrive with the full Bible canon, so the Bible can't be the "complete" thing as some claim. This idea IMHO, makes no sense in the context of these verses.
Paul continues in verse twelve by again linking and contrasting what is "partial" with a future full "knowing" and "seeing", indicating that only "complete" spiritual knowledge and sight would signal the ending of miraculous gifts. Again, that hasn't occured yet. Surely such spiritual completion only arrives when Christians are fully united with God? I feel Paul speaks of this directly in the verses that follow when he says - in the very same sentence as speaking of "partial" knowledge - that "then it will be face to face". Face to face with whom? As it reads to me, Paul is here speaking of being face to face with God, and of "knowing" Him accurately ("even as I am accurately known"). So if the gifts don't cease until the "partial" becomes "complete" and that completion is shown to be full spiritual knowledge, power, and full understanding of God, even seeing him "face to face", then that puts the cessation of the gifts some way into the future doesn't it? How can the "complete" thing be said to be the Bible with its NT in this context?
I look forward to hearing your thoughts.
Much Philia.
Phi.
Post edited by: Phi, at: 2005/02/27 04:58
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Shaihulud
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Re:The Miraculous Gifts Today. - 2005/02/27 02:45One reason why miraculous gifts are not present today could be because of the apostasy. Paul said the apostasy would come after the apostles died off. I don't think that God would allow miracles during a time of apostasy.
Perhaps miracles will appear again before the complete knowledge arrives. Such in the case of the two witnesses that preach before Christ kingdom is put in place. They perform an Elijah type work including miraculous works.
5 And if anyone wants to harm them, fire issues forth from their mouths and devours their enemies; and if anyone should want to harm them, in this manner he must be killed. 6 These have the authority to shut up heaven that no rain should fall during the days of their prophesying, and they have authority over the waters to turn them into blood and to strike the earth with every sort of plague as often as they wish.
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Phi
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Re:The Miraculous Gifts Today. - 2005/02/27 03:14Hi Shaihulid, thanks for your comments Bro.
I agree with you in part...or perhaps completely depending on what your statement about apostasy means.
The verses in 1 Cor 13 are quite clear IMHO that the gifts would certainly not cease until "that which is complete" arrives. If this completion is full knowledge of God at a time of seeing Him "face to face" and knowing him fully, then these gifts must still be in operation today to some extent, otherwise the Scripture is contradicted. There is no Scripture that I am aware of which indicates that apostasy would mean that God would completely stop working miracles through any Christians.
What I do accept is that God would not work miracles through those individuals who were apostates or who denied the power of God by their acceptance of man-made doctrine regarding it. Further, those without faith in God to work miraculously through them can hardly expect to do so. Jesus repeatedly spoke of miracles being related to faith. Therefore I can understand why these gifts are less common among those who call themselves Christian ever since the first century. I certainly think it is telling that the gifts are absolutely denied by the WTBTS and that it teaches against them, as do various other Churches. But not all do. And many Christians from many denomination do accept that God can and does still work in that way through some Christians today. (There is one such anointed Sister posting at Paradise Cafe at the moment, whose truthfulmess and love of God I don't doubt for one moment). Whereas the Society high handedly condemns all such operations of spirit as demonic, with no credible evidence I am aware of.
I suspect, in light of the Scriptures regarding spiritual gifts, that once again - as in Rutherfords day when the Witnesses denied the Spirit as operating AT ALL - the Society is teaching today that God has changed the means of the operation of the spirit since the first century when the pattern for true Christianity was established. In this I think they could well be "blaspheming against the holy spirit" Mark 3:28-30. Luke 12:10.
But I do cerainly agree that, in an individual sense, those who are apostates (as well as those lacking faith or who are persuaded by man made teachings against the spiritual gifts) cannot expect to recieve such spiritual gifts from God.
Much Philia.
Phi.
Post edited by: Phi, at: 2005/02/27 03:45
Post edited by: Phi, at: 2005/02/27 13:35
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Phi
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Re:The Miraculous Gifts Today. - 2005/02/27 04:28With regard to exactly WHAT "that which is complete" IS - so that we can identify WHEN it arrives and when the gifts cease. I thought the following edited, highlighted, text of 1 Cor 13:8-12 might help, remembering that this is one point being made by Paul throughout this discussion. See what you think.
"Love never fails. But whether there are gifts of prophesying, they will be done away with; whether there are tongues they will cease: whether there is knowledge it will be done away with. For we have partial knowledge and we prophesy partially, but when that which is complete arrives, that which is partial will be done away with"
[So, lots of references to a future time, begging the question: when? Which Paul goes on to answer]
"....For at present we see in hazy outline"
[see what?]
"but then IT WILL BE FACE TO FACE"
[So here is his answer to our question: what they will 'then' see fully is a person, God, and 'then' is when "that which is complete arrives", replacing all that is partial, ending miraculous gifts]
"At present I know PARTIALLY, but THEN..."
[here it comes... for a second time Paul is about to answer the first question regarding 'that which is complete': when will it arrive?]
"...THEN I shall know accurately even as I am accurately known"
[So, the answer Paul gives us to the question "when does that which is complete arrive?" is when Christians know God as accurately as He knows them. When they are fully united with him, IMHO]
Much Philia.
Phi.
Post edited by: Phi, at: 2005/02/27 05:54
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Epignossis
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Re:The Miraculous Gifts Today. - 2005/02/28 10:14Hey Phi this is a great thread. Very glad you got it started. Funnily enough many of our friends here seem to be in expectation of something of these sorts!
I totally agree with your earlier comments and reasoning. Could I add these initial following points. Based on our earlier discussions I am sure you will understand where I am coming from. I would like to give it some further thought too.
I see the context of these scriptures is the explanation of what love is. The specific passage commences "love never fails". We are invited to come into the love of God and the love of the Christ. IMO most if not all are not there in a complete sense. So the spirit of love will keep working to get us in there because love never fails. It will keep operating until we are there.
The operation of the spirit is I believe, the operation of the spirit of love. Because God is love and it is his spirit. So my basic reasoning is miracles will keep occuring by the spirit until love has completed its work fully and just as you say we have full knowledge of God. This what I understand is the meaning of 1 Cor 8:2-3. There is a clear connection between "proper" knowledge and love of God.
There is also the expectation of the Joel 2:28-30 scenario.
28 "And after that it must occur that I shall pour out my spirit on every sort of flesh, and YOUR sons and YOUR daughters will certainly prophesy. As for YOUR old men, dreams they will dream. As for YOUR young men, visions they will see. 29 And even on the menservants and on the maidservants in those days I shall pour out my spirit.
30 "And I will give portents in the heavens and on the earth, blood and fire and columns of smoke. 31 The sun itself will be turned into darkness, and the moon into blood, before the coming of the great and fear-inspiring day of Jehovah. 32 And it must occur that everyone who calls on the name of Jehovah will get away safe; for in Mount Zion and in Jerusalem there will prove to be the escaped ones, just as Jehovah has said, and in among the survivors, whom Jehovah is calling."
When a similar spirit was poured out at Pentecost, with that spirit came miracles. The point of the miracles was IMO to establish ostensible authority. It is one thing to say "I have God's spirit". It is another thing to prove it beyond reasonable doubt.
This was exactly the same as with Jesus' resurrection of Lazarus. That act of resurrection was specifically carried out so that people would know that Jesus was sent forth by God.
Shai, I note your words here
One reason why miraculous gifts are not present today could be because of the apostasy. Paul said the apostasy would come after the apostles died off. I don't think that God would allow miracles during a time of apostasy.
Perhaps miracles will appear again before the complete knowledge arrives. Such in the case of the two witnesses that preach before Christ kingdom is put in place. They perform an Elijah type work including miraculous works.
Yes I agree with you on the Two Witnesses thing. I believe what they do will be physical manifestations of power and authority as per Rev 11. My reasoning here is based partly on the work of the first Elijah as you mention.
Interestingly, the miracle that Elijah performed in front of the Baal worshippers was exactly to show up apostate worship. He "polarised" the position of those who were supposed to worship the true God
21 Then E·liŽjah approached all the people and said: "How long will YOU be limping upon two different opinions? If Jehovah is the [true] God, go following him; but if BaŽal is, go following him." And the people did not say a word in answer to him. (1 King 18:21)
Jehovah humiliated Baal! Similarly he humiliated the Egyptian gods and their view of divine Pharoahs. In respect of the latter, Pharaoh purported to exercise divine right over Gods people. Was that an apostasy?
Both of these displays were carried out with the type of miracles referred to in Revelation 11. This might imply then that the work of those two witnesses is indeed in the face of apostate worship and is executed exactly to provide an answer to polarised positions. Will the positions be polarised for people? Is the issue of true worship vs worshipping the Beast a polarising of positions? Is worshipping a golden calf v worshipping the true God a polarising of positions? I think so!
The point I make above about ostensible authority would apply especially to the Two Witnesses.
Hope this will help. Look forward to other thoughts too.
Much love and spirit
ePig Knowledge puffs up, but love builds up. If anyone thinks he has acquired knowledge of something, he does not yet know it just as he ought to know it. But if anyone loves God, this one is known by him - 1 Cor 8:1-3
I find myself nodding all thru the posts. I can find no scriptural reason why the gifts of spirit are not alive and well today - and just because I haven't experienced them doesn't mean they're not there. But....
It seems as though there was a cut off of gifts once the apostles died.
Does this suggest an end of an era? I can't find any scriptural evidence to support that notion. If I have missed something, please show me!!!!
Are we expecting a greater fulfillment of Joel 2 still to come? Yes, it seems so. Does this mean the initial fulfillment ran out of steam, so to speak? Where is the scriptural proof that this would happen?
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