Re:The Miraculous Gifts Today. - 2005/03/04 10:58Flowerchild wrote: Goodmorning dear Phi and Eden
enjoyed your comments, one word just jumped out at me
However three things REMAIN faith, hope and love, focus on the remain what does this mean in your opinion?
Much peace
Sandra
For me, the conotation of these words is this:
OK, so we don't have a clear picture, we can't know everything yet, but we still have faith hope and love - love is the best one.
Here is a lovely rendering from the Message bible:
But for right now, until that completeness, we have three things to do to lead us toward that consummation: Trust steadily in God, hope unswervingly, love extravagantly. And the best of the three is love.
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Epignossis
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Re:The Miraculous Gifts Today. - 2005/03/04 11:32Here is a lovely rendering from the Message bible:
But for right now, until that completeness, we have three things to do to lead us toward that consummation: Trust steadily in God, hope unswervingly, love extravagantly. And the best of the three is love.
Hey Eden, really like that one! Thanks for that.
ePigKnowledge puffs up, but love builds up. If anyone thinks he has acquired knowledge of something, he does not yet know it just as he ought to know it. But if anyone loves God, this one is known by him - 1 Cor 8:1-3
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Eden
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Re:The Miraculous Gifts Today. - 2005/03/05 21:43I wrote the following some time ago but thought it had some relevance to this topic. It doesn't talk about the availablity of gifts today - but anyway I hope it is of use...
THE GIFTS IN MEN AND THE ONENESS
Ephesians 4 discusses the ‘gifts’ Christ provided in men. We can see from these verses that each Christian was gifted in a particular way for the purpose of ‘readjusting the holy ones and the building up of the body of Christ’ and this would only be necessary ‘until we all attain to the oneness in the faith and in the accurate knowledge of the Son of God’.
We can conclude then, there will come a time when these gifts will no longer be needed. The question is: has that time come?
Firstly, how are we supposed to understand the phrase ‘gifts in men’? We have become accustomed to using this phrase in connection with men serving in positions of authority in the kingdom hall like elders or C.O’s etc. Thus interpreting the phrase, ‘gifts in men’ as meaning the man is the gift.
For example, did Jesus say, “friends, here is a gift to you from me, Brother Smith! I give to you Brother Smith as a present!” Is this what the ‘gifts in men’ meant? The verses in question are as follows: “And he gave some as apostles, some as prophets, some as evangelizers, some as shepherds and teachers, with a view to the readjustment of the holy ones, for ministerial work, for the building up of the body of the Christ” So the gift here is not the man but the gift is in the man. Jesus gives Holy Spirit to each one so they can work as an Apostle, Prophet or Shepherd etc. the gift is the Holy Spirit. Jesus said of the Holy Spirit at John 14:16,17,25,26: “…I will request the Father and he will give YOU another helper to be with YOU forever, the spirit of the truth, which the world cannot receive, because it neither beholds it nor knows it. YOU know it, because it remains with YOU and is in YOU…While remaining with YOU I have spoken these things to YOU. But the helper, the holy spirit, which the Father will send in my name, that one will teach YOU all things and bring back to YOUR minds all the things I told YOU…” this helper arrived in 33CE at Pentecost in an upper room where 120 faithful disciples of Christ were anointed.
A prophetic pattern
Seeing that the ’marker’ determining the time limit for these ‘gifts’ is the achievement of ‘the oneness in the faith and in the accurate knowledge of the Son of God’, we have a definite cut off point when this will occur. When will this be? Has it been?
When Paul penned these words it was 60CE. This was some 26+ years after Pentecost 33CE and 5-6 years before Rome surrounded Jerusalem with encamped armies. Is there a prophetic picture of the last days of Satan’s system in 1st century events? I think so!
Peter’s words immediately after Jehovah poured His spirit on the 120 in the upper room are very interesting: “And in the last days,” God says, “I shall pour out some of my spirit upon every sort of flesh, and YOUR sons and YOUR daughters will prophesy and YOUR young men will see visions and YOUR old men will dream dreams;” Of interest is the phrase ‘in the last days’, we know Joel was referring to a time future to even Peter’s time because of these words “before the great and illustrious day of Jehovah arrives.” The point is, we should expect, at a time prior to ‘the great and illustrious day of Jehovah’ but yet in our future, Jehovah ‘will pour out some of His spirit’ on His servants in a similar way (but probably more awe-inspiring) to the out pouring at 33CE. Once this happens, it is then that Jesus will provide the ‘gifts in men’ ‘until we all attain to the oneness in the faith’.
In the prophetic pattern then, at what point is the oneness achieved? What must happen first? The order of events: - Holy Spirit out pouring - Gifts in men provided thru this spirit - The oneness
The oneness
Paul encouraged the Ephesians to be “earnestly endeavoring to observe the oneness of the spirit in the uniting bond of peace.” For one to be ‘endeavoring’ to do something, it is a continual pursuit; a goal to strive for. A little further on from the quote above Paul refers to the future attainment of this goal. The purpose of the gifts in men was ‘for the building up of the body of the Christ, until we all attain to the oneness in the faith and in the accurate knowledge of the Son of God, to a full-grown man, to the measure of stature that belongs to the fullness of the Christ…’ So this pursuit is not aimless; but when will we all attain to the oneness?
This phrase is only used once in the bible, which is in Paul’s letter to the Ephesians. Is the attainment of this oneness an isolated scriptural text? Is there no other reference to it? Or is it possible that this oneness is referred to several times throughout the scriptures? Let’s consider some possibilities.
Daniel 12:4 says: “And as for you, O Daniel, make secret the words and seal up the book, until the time of [the] end. Many will rove about, and the [true] knowledge will become abundant.” This true knowledge becomes abundant at the time of the end, could this time also be called ‘the last days’? Could the ‘true knowledge’ be a result of Holy Spirit being poured out? Could the ‘many’ that find this ‘true knowledge’ also be ‘earnestly endeavoring to observe the oneness of the spirit in the uniting bond of peace’ until they finally attain to it?
1 Corinthians 13:8-12 is especially interesting because it is talking about the finishing of the ‘gifts of the spirit’, it says, “Love never fails. But whether there are [gifts of] prophesying, they will be done away with; whether there are tongues, they will cease; whether there is knowledge, it will be done away with. 9 For we have partial knowledge and we prophesy partially; 10 but when that which is complete arrives, that which is partial will be done away with. 11 When I was a babe, I used to speak as a babe, to think as a babe, to reason as a babe; but now that I have become a man, I have done away with the [traits] of a babe. 12 For at present we see in hazy outline by means of a metal mirror, but then it will be face to face. At present I know partially, but then I shall know accurately even as I am accurately known. Here in 55CE Paul refers to a future arrival of something good, as in 60CE to the Ephesians the oneness is also future and good; in both cases there is an eager expectation or an earnest endeavor of this ‘good thing’. In 1 Corinthians 13 this ‘good thing’ is referred to as ‘that which is complete’, could this completeness be a ‘oneness’ and ‘an accurate knowledge of the son of God’, especially since the context of Paul’s words above is in fact the attainment of accurate knowledge?
1 John 3:2 is interesting: “Beloved ones, now we are children of God, but as yet it has not been made manifest what we shall be. We do know that whenever he is made manifest we shall be like him, because we shall see him just as he is” Here we have reference to partial knowledge and a reference to being face to face. The end of this partial knowledge is at the manifestation of Christ, when ‘every eye will see him’ ‘coming on the clouds of heaven with power and great glory’. Jesus is definitely complete and at this point in time he will arrive, and partial knowledge will be done away with, and every anointed Son of God will be glorified and have a perfect oneness with the spirit and ‘an accurate knowledge of the Son of God’.
The verses immediately prior to this verse are perhaps the most telling. “These things I write YOU about those who are trying to mislead YOU. And as for YOU, the anointing that YOU received from him remains in YOU, and YOU do not need anyone to be teaching YOU; but, as the anointing from him is teaching YOU about all things, and is true and is no lie, and just as it has taught YOU, remain in union with him. So now, little children, remain in union with him, that when he is made manifest we may have freeness of speech and not be shamed away from him at his presence. If YOU know that he is righteous, YOU gain the knowledge that everyone who practices righteousness has been born from him. When John says, ‘you do not need anyone to be teaching you’ does he mean that these gifts in men were no longer needed? NO! The phrase ‘the anointing from him is teaching you’ is surely a gift of the spirit in men.
So to conclude, Jesus thru the Holy Spirit provides the gifts in men as gifts of spirit for the readjustment of the Holy Ones and the building up of the body of the Christ. This spirit works in each one teaching them the truth and as long as each one remains in the light the gift will remain in them. Although we can now pray for and receive Holy Spirit these gifts of spirit in men will only come after the grand fulfillment of Joel’s prophecy Peter applied to 33CE, this must coincide with the time of the end Daniel mentioned, as true knowledge will become abundant thru these gifts. And when Jesus returns on the clouds of heaven, that which is complete will have arrived that which is partial will be done away with, he will send forth his angels with a trumpet sound and collect the chosen ones and they will all attain to the oneness in the faith and an accurate knowledge of the Son of God because they will see him just as he is. They will all attain to the oneness in the faith at the end of their faith when they are glorified with Jesus. [size=3][/size]
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Epignossis
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Re:The Miraculous Gifts Today. - 2005/03/06 00:33Hey Eden, can we post this as an article?
ePigKnowledge puffs up, but love builds up. If anyone thinks he has acquired knowledge of something, he does not yet know it just as he ought to know it. But if anyone loves God, this one is known by him - 1 Cor 8:1-3
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Eden
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Re:The Miraculous Gifts Today. - 2005/03/06 12:52Epignossis wrote: Hey Eden, can we post this as an article?
In your article that you wrote under the subheading "A Prophetic Pattern" I wish to ask when you said in regards to the 'gifts'
"The point is, we should expect, at a time prior to ‘the great and illustrious day of Jehovah’ but yet in our future, Jehovah ‘will pour out some of His spirit’ on His servants.."
My question is, how do you know or why do you expect that Jehovah will 'pour out some of his spirit' in which gifts will be given to the men "sometime in our future?" Why do you believe would it be 'sometime in our future?'
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