In your article that you wrote under the subheading "A Prophetic Pattern" I wish to ask when you said in regards to the 'gifts'
"The point is, we should expect, at a time prior to ‘the great and illustrious day of Jehovah’ but yet in our future, Jehovah ‘will pour out some of His spirit’ on His servants.."
My question is, how do you know or why do you expect that Jehovah will 'pour out some of his spirit' in which gifts will be given to the men "sometime in our future?" Why do you believe would it be 'sometime in our future?'
Hello Aaron, peace be with you too!!
From the outset please understand I am not dogmatic about such things. But yes, I have drawn this conclusion from various scriptural references.
Firstly, the account in Joel. The events seem to have this [general] order: - Great tribulation - Compensation for it to God's people - Outpouring of spirit - Armageddon - Paradise
So, from this it seems, since the trib is yet future, so is the out pouring of spirit. There are some that think the Great Trib. started in 70 CE and will not stop until Christ arrives, so that it is great in length as well as terror - but even this line of thinking has to admit a 3.5 year trib punctuating the 2000+ years of trib, just prior to Christ's coming. Either way, Joel's account suggests that the out pouring of spirit comes after the trib. That is yet future.
Secondly, Peter applies the Joel account to pentecost 33 CE. We know from this account marvelous gifts of spirit were imparted to the faithful. We also know Peter is reliable so Joels prophecy was fulfilled in that outpouring. But Joels account seems to me to be speaking of the end of Satans system and the beginning of Christ's. So there must be a grander fulfillment - something we are still waiting for.
Thirdly, Johns account in Revelation of the two witnesses. These have gifts of spirit akin to Moses and Elijah - this is yet future.
Can I ask Aaron, what your views are in this topic? I would enjoy hearing your opinion.
Christian love Eden
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Aaron
User Senior Boarder
Posts: 13
Re:The Miraculous Gifts Today. - 2005/03/11 10:47Thank you very much for the peace.
I believe I understand 'more' of why you drew this conclusion and I can understand your desire to not be dogmatic. I do have something I can share with you, perhaps it can be considered.
One of the things that I have come to know is that God really loves mankind (there is a point.. if you will 'bear' with me). He loves all the sons of men 'very much' and he would like for all men to have the gifts of the spirit. His son Adam, who was made in his image, had many gifts. The Father loved Adam and although he sinned, it did please the Father that his children would desire the gifts of the spirit. Love, peace, longsuffering, goodness, kindness, faith, and many other things are all gifts of the spirit that the Father would like for all to have. He 'wants' us to have these gifts.
If you recall, in James 1:5 he says, "if any one of you is lacking in wisdom, let him keep on asking God, for he gives generously to all and without reproaching; and it will be given him." And again in James 1:17 he says, "Every good gift and every perfect present is from above, for it comes down from the Father of the [celestial] lights, and with him there is not a variation of the turning of the shadow." Ever good gift and every perfect present that comes from above, are the gifts that the Father 'wants' to give willingly and freely without reproaching. He gave gifts of the spirit to many. He gave to Noah, Abraham, Issac, Abel, and others. When Joshua, who ministered to Moses, came to Moses and told him to restrain the seventy men from prophesying (because he wanted only Moses to be the prophet) Moses said to him, “Are you feeling jealous for me? No, I wish that all of Jehovah’s people were prophets, because Jehovah would put his spirit upon them!” (Numbers 11:28, 29). God 'wants' to give gifts of the spirit to all his people because he loves all of them and he would like for all of them to benefit from his spirit (Luke 11:16). Now if you look at things, did not Jehovah pour out his spirit upon flesh from the days of Adam onward. He poured it out upon Noah and when there were no more 'asking' and no more who were 'wishing to receive' and "at that time" the earth became so violent and so bad that he had to remove others to protect his people, he removed them. He removed them, but the end was not yet. Why? Because after Noah, others were born who would also 'ask' and who would desire the gifts. Ones such as Abraham, Isaac, Moses, David, Solomon, Samuel.. and others. It was not until Israel polluted the land so much because of their badness (for they were not just hurting themselves but also those in their midst such as the animals) that after God poured out his spirit upon Jeremiah and through him 'begged' and 'pleaded' with Israel to stop.. he eventually had to remove Israel by the hand of Babylon because they were destroying their land (Jeremiah 25:3-5). Yet, because there were still some 'good ones' left over he did take care of the ones who continued to desire the good things (Jeremiah 24:4, 5). So the end did not come yet because there still were ones to be born who also would ask. And then when our Master came in the flesh, others through him continued asking and received.. even from him (Matthew 10:1; Luke 7:47).
The Christ who is the very image of the Father, also loved man and he too wanted them to have gifts. So he gave to them gifts of the spirit (John 20:21-23). He shared with them the gifts of the spirit and sent them to share with others what he shared with them.. and they did (Acts 2:38). Now it is true that before the coming of the great day of Jehovah, Jehovah will 'pour out his spirit upon every sort of flesh,' and.. he has. From the days of Adam through the days of Noah, even upon the days of Samuel, David, Elijah, and others.. through the days of John the one sent to Baptize. Christ was appointed to be the One coming after John and he would baptize with holy spirit. Therefore, as long as there are ones asking.. he will continue to pour out his spirit upon every sort of flesh.. from the days of the twelve.. even up to our day.. and in our future until the time comes when 'no more' will be asking and no longer will men be 'putting up with the healthful teaching' or the sayings of life but will turn away.. each one to his own way. When that time comes when no more are asking and it is necessary.. he will come and gather all those who belong to him. Then.. after that when 'he has got all his own out' (John 10:4).. the great day of Jehovah will eventually come. There were 'destructions,' such as the temple in Jerusalem, and such destructions came.. however, the end had not yet come because there were still ones who would be asking.
In the meantime, the Christ continues to call ones and give them his spirit and gifts of the spirit to anyone asking.. and those who receive such gifts are sent forth "some as apostles, some as prophets, some as evangelizers, some as shepherds and some as teachers" to help those asking and wishing as well as those who are 'of the body' to be readjusted (put back into alignment) so that they too can go forth and minister their 'gift(s)' of the spirit to others as many as the Christ directs them to. The Christ is always searching the earth and anyone asking, anyone hearing, anyone wishing, anyone knocking are offered these gifts of the spirit.. freely. As often as there are people who still want the gifts.. God will continue calling them and those who accept, will receive gifts and be given the priviledge to minister their 'gift' to others. This has occured and will continue to occur until the day finally comes.
Thanks again for your upbuilding words. Its funny, I read your reply and found myself nodding all the way thru it as though it was nothing I didn't already know. So it left me wondering, 'Do I have two conflicting ideas in my head?'
On one hand, I understand the fruits of the spirit are also gifts. Love is a miracle. Hence, miracles happen daily, a million times over. And I have personally recieved gifts from Jehovah, such as wisdom and the words at the right time (Can I have some more now please father?) - heaven forbid I should take these for granted or be-little them in anyway! Admittedly, this is an understanding I have only recently come to.
On the otherhand, as I have highlighted above, I understand there to be a grand outpouring of spirit yet to come. Akin to, but grander than, the outpouring at pentecost of 33 CE.
This seems to find parallel in the 1st century. Before 33 CE, Jesus and the 12 and others, were granted holy spirit and powers of healing. Peter walked on water. Peter, James and John saw the transfiguration!! This was before Peter proclaimed Joel 2 was fulfilled.
So I don't think the two ideas conflict.
As for miraculous powers of healing, and walking on water etc. These gifts are absolutely linked to faith. For example the woman with the flow of blood actually healed herself. Jesus said to her, "Your faith has made you well."
Is the apparent absence of these miracles today due to an absence of faith. Jesus asked if he would find faith when he returned. This insinuates faith would be hard to find.
Lets keep building ourselves up on our most holy faith.
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Warrior
User Platinum Boarder
Posts: 128
Re:The Miraculous Gifts Today. - 2005/03/14 11:48As you believe, so it will be done for you.
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