Who are the prince in Isa32 and Psalm 45 - 2004/09/14 18:50Isa 32:1 says: 32 Look! A king will reign for righteousness itself; and as respects princes, they will rule as princes for justice itself
Psalm 45:16 says:
16 In place of your forefathers there will come to be your sons, Whom you will appoint as princes in all the earth.
Are these the same princes. If not what is the difference?
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Re:Who are the prince in Isa32 and Psalm 45 - 2004/09/16 20:14mmmm...I'll have to think about that one, I'll get back to you.
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Re:Who are the prince in Isa32 and Psalm 45 - 2004/09/16 20:15Well, I've been doing my homework Epig. I've been considering those verses and their context this afternoon. But I still have to do more thinking. I presume you have a take it? Wanna give us a clue as to what you're thinking?
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Re:Who are the prince in Isa32 and Psalm 45 - 2004/09/16 20:16Hey Izzy and SoC, the reason I put this one up on the board was partly because of the name of the site and partly because one of our members raised a point about these scriptures that I had not considered. He pointed out (I think I got this right) that these were anointed but prior to their going to heaven i.e. after Jesus begins ruling but before their departure they fulfill this role of being a hiding place from the storm etc.
The reasoning is that there should be no storms wind etc once the kingdom is operative on the earth.
That seemed a fair enough point.
My own view was quite different though. I thought the Isa 32 princes and the Psalm 45 princes were the same.
Psalm 45:16 an 17 make it clear that those particular princes are appointed as princes "in all the earth". Some bible say " through" others "over". Specifically they are sons of the King, (and presumably of the bride). And they are in place of the King's forefathers. This might imply that they include those resurrected forefathers.
The picture I see is that the forefathers especially since Abraham, in effect produced the seed, which includes the King and the bride.
It always seemed unusual to me that the line that produces the seed is somehow out of the equation when it comes to the blessing of mankind. So my thinking was that they, as princes, acting in concert with the King (the seed) cause blessings to come upon mankind.
Such thinking then would suggest an earthly judicial administration of what is established in heaven - what is in heaven in a sense is presented on earth. This to me would not mean the administration on earth mediates in any way - it just administers. For this reason I think the princes are the chieftain and interact with the priests as shown in Ezekiel's temple.
I also find it interesting that the promise in Gen 22:18 is that " by means of your seed all nations of the earth will certainly bless themselves"
The NWT footnote bible makes the point that the Hebrew verb for blessing is used reflexively and not passively thus highlighting that the nations bless themselves, not that the seed blesses them. The seed nevertheless is the means by which that happens.
If this is correct then that would imply a regime of light-handed governance where a fair amount of autonomy was accorded through the administrative function (if all that makes sense and doesn't sound too gobbledy gooky).
When I look at Isa 32:1 that is in fact what I see - a governance regime - King in heaven establishes the basis for righteousness. Princes on earth administer and implement the justice that flows from that righteousness. By their being on the earth they prove to be hiding places.
Why would there need to be hiding places? The only reason I can give is that we are not there yet in terms of getting true love operating fully. There will still be a need especially initially, either for a level of protection or for the taking away of bad memories and feelings.
The outcome will be as set out in verse 16 - in the wilderness justice will certainly reside and in the orchard righteousness itself will dwell and the work of the true righteousness must become peace; and the service of the true righteousness, quietness and security to time indefinite.
This regime thinking is, I believe, consistent with the notion of God's will being done as in heaven also on earth, and a " new heaveans and new earth".
Well that's my thinking on it. I would really appreciate other points of view, after which I would like to put up a formal piece (essay) for further commment.
Much love and spirit to all reading
Epig
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Re:Who are the prince in Isa32 and Psalm 45 - 2004/09/16 20:17Hi Epig. Yes my first thoughts on the 'princes' of Isaiah 32:1 were that they were the anointed who 'rule' among the cleansed remnant and those of the nations who come to them in a temporary calm in a blessed spiritual estate after the tribulation, but still during the 'trampling' (or have I become hopelessly confused here?) The 'princes' of Psalms 45:16 are problematic for me. I gather you are suggesting that these princes rule in the earth after Armageddon (though as you say it could be 'over' the earth)? I have always had trouble swallowing the idea that the faithful men of old will form an administration in the new world. I can't help wondering if this idea originally sprang from the notion that these faithful men of fame were somehow spiritual titans, beyond ordinary men, an idea I don't really accept. There has been a lot of hero worship of these ones, I think. As if nobody else will have the calibre to be up to the task. However, I realise that's not at all where you are coming from, as you feel it may be related to the promises.
I have problems seeing how "IN PLACE of your forefathers" indicates that these forefathers will reappear as "princes". It depends what the meaning of "in place" is. Could it mean, "instead of", as in, the "sons" are not the same as the "forefathers" but perform a similar leadership function? What does it mean by "forefathers"? Are these literally the ancestors of Jesus, which would excluded a number of prominent 'men of old' wouldn't it? Or does it loosely mean 'those who came before' among the Israelites? I also have a bit of trouble following how these ones could be the King's "sons". I have heard this perhaps refers to their being 'born' of the resurrection by means of the King. But it doesn't sit right with me yet. Still chewing on that. Perhaps my difficulty lies with the idea of any of those on the earth being called "sons" - even in the context of the resurrection, and even if they are "sons" of the King, the Seed - prior to the conclusion of the 1,000 years.
So basically...I'm confused...and am intent on spreading my confusion
Much Philia Izzy.
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Re:Who are the prince in Isa32 and Psalm 45 - 2004/09/16 20:18I would say the Princes are the anointed too. Even though Christ is a King, in many places he is called a prince when describing his rule. Isa 9:6 For there has been a child born to us, there has been a son given to us; and the princely rule will come to be upon his shoulder. And his name will be called Wonderful Counselor, Mighty God, Eternal Father, Prince of Peace. 7 To the abundance of the princely rule and to peace there will be no end, upon the throne of David and upon his kingdom in order to establish it firmly and to sustain it by means of justice and by means of righteousness, from now on and to time indefinite. The very zeal of Jehovah of armies will do this.
(Daniel 8:11) And all the way to the Prince of the army it put on great airs, and from him the constant [feature] was taken away, and the established place of his sanctuary was thrown down.
Dan 8:25 And according to his insight he will also certainly cause deception to succeed in his hand. And in his heart he will put on great airs, and during a freedom from care he will bring many to ruin. And against the Prince of princes he will stand up, but it will be without hand that he will be broken.
Dan 12:1 “And during that time Mi?cha·el will stand up, the great prince who is standing in behalf of the sons of your people.
Truly all that rule with Christ including Christ are Princes next to the Grand King Jehovah. Princes become Kings when the King has passed away and and they are next in line to be King. Jehovah never dies so in a sense the 144,000 and Christ will always be princes. They will rule as secondary Kings or vassel kings.
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