Re:Who are the prince in Isa32 and Psalm 45 - 2004/09/16 20:19Hey Izzy, good stuff!! Unfortunately this discussion tool is not as sophisiticated as what we have been used to (no way to format text etc) and split out quotes but I will box on and hope things don't get too mixed up. Here are some further thoughts.
"Hi Epig. Yes my first thoughts on the 'princes' of Isaiah 32:1 were that they were the anointed who 'rule' among the cleansed remnant and those of the nations who come to them in a temporary calm in a blessed spiritual estate after the tribulation, but still during the 'trampling' (or have I become hopelessly confused here?)"
Yes, this is the way it was put to me - that this relates to that short period after the trib but before heading to heaven.
"The 'princes' of Psalms 45:16 are problematic for me. I gather you are suggesting that these princes rule in the earth after Armageddon (though as you say it could be 'over' the earth)? I have always had trouble swallowing the idea that the faithful men of old will form an administration in the new world. I can't help wondering if this idea originally sprang from the notion that these faithful men of fame were somehow spiritual titans, beyond ordinary men, an idea I don't really accept. There has been a lot of hero worship of these ones, I think. As if nobody else will have the calibre to be up to the task. However, I realise that's not at all where you are coming from, as you feel it may be related to the promises."
Yep, can see where you are coming from. My idea though is that this is not confined completely to the literal forefathers. My thought was more about the governance mechanism operating in conjunction with an earth bound group, i.e. the princes.
Part of what tweaked my thinking this way was some of CT Russell's reasoning in his book "The Time is at Hand". On p 302 he set out a chart of the "Church of God" showing the arrangement under the type and reality.
Under the type there was the high priest, then the under priests (Aaronic priesthood) and then came the Levites then came the people.
He felt there was a correspondency in the Reality during the millenium with Jesus as high priest, the body of Christ who share in the office of rulership and then under them what he called an "earthly phase of the Kingdom of God; through whom the glorified church will more direct contact with the world in teaching, governing etc and who also will have closest communion with the spiritual church in glory".
This seemed to me something akin to the picture we see in Ezekiel with the Chieftain and the "interfacing" betweeen the Chieftain and the Priests and also the people.
"I have problems seeing how "IN PLACE of your forefathers" indicates that these forefathers will reappear as "princes". It depends what the meaning of "in place" is. Could it mean, "instead of", as in, the "sons" are not the same as the "forefathers" but perform a similar leadership function? What does it mean by "forefathers"?"
I am inclined to think there is substitution here. As I mentioned above I am more focused on the concept of ones that have spiritual skills which would include men of old as well as many alive today who then act in the capacity of princes. Also the concept is one of nations blessing themselves i.e. there has to be a measure of ability to govern but presumably based on guidance from the King who rules for righteousness i.e. sets out what is righteous and what is not.
I am not sure whether this is relevant but it is interesting to see that the tribe of Levi is mentioned in the 12 tribes in Rev 7. If one subscribes to the notion that the 144,000 are sealed "out of" the 12 tribes, then this might imply that first there are some left over and second they are the "spiritual israelites". Given also that the nations bless themselves by means of the seed, then it might also be seed that the seed is the nation of Israel, in both heavenly and earthly modes.
Hope this makes sense and does not confuse or adds some "seed" to sprout some ideas
Very muh philliness to you
Epig
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Re:Who are the prince in Isa32 and Psalm 45 - 2004/09/16 20:20Thanks Shaihulud, really appreciate your comments. I take it you think both the Isa 32 and Psalm 45 princes are anointed ones and that in this context anointed ones means those who go to heaven?
My reason for thinking the Psalm 45 princes (at least) were earthly was that they were sons of the King (Jesus, not Jehovah) and they are mentioned in context with the bride, implying these are offspring of the King and his bride.
I also thought the statement "in place of your forefathers" also implied some notion of the original seed that produced this seed, including Abraham himself, somehow being reconnected with the blessing of the nations so that not only do we get Jesus as the seed but also the operation of these very spiritual men, including latter day ones, providing a means for blessing.
I hope that makes sense. Look forward to your further thoughts
Much philia
Epig
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Re:Who are the prince in Isa32 and Psalm 45 - 2004/09/16 20:24Well as usual I'm late... ...I tend to agree with what's already been stated, ie;Isa 32: the princes = the anointed prior to their resurection. Whoever they are they rule before armageddon simply because there will be no storm to shelter from afterwards. I have a problem with the idea of any human having a station above any other human - this is the whole point of the 'new administration' the heavenly kingdom, so it is an interesting question. As Izzy suggested, the brief window of time between the great trib and armageddon where the holy ones shine as sealed conquerers must be where this senario fits. As for Ps 45 this has to be the anointed as well, and seems to find fulfillment during the 1000 years or at least at the installation of the kingdom, (the wedding)
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Re:Who are the prince in Isa32 and Psalm 45 - 2004/09/16 20:25SlaveOfChrist said: "As for Ps 45 this has to be the anointed as well, and seems to find fulfillment during the 1000 years or at least at the installation of the kingdom, (the wedding)"
My problem SoC is why are they then called sons who are in place of your (presumably the king's) forefathers?
Any ideas on this anyone?
Look forward to hearing
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Re:Who are the prince in Isa32 and Psalm 45 - 2004/09/16 20:26Well...don't pounce if I've got this one VERY wrong, but...might 1 John 2:28, 29 indicate how these anointed ones can possibly be Jesus "sons"? I have trouble reading it another way, as I don't quite know how to associate the terms "made manifest" and "presence" with anyone but Jesus. The relationship between the anointed ones and Jesus is already rather descriptively complicated, in that his anointed 'brothers' compose his 'bride'. I don't see why they can't also be considered Jesus "sons" in a certain specific descriptive context. I Cor 15:42-49 Isaiah 43:27 Isaiah 9:6, 7.
Philia.
Izzy.
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Re:Who are the prince in Isa32 and Psalm 45 - 2004/09/16 20:27yeah, I agree with Izzy. Jesus is called 'eternal father' and the anointed are called 'sons' of the kingdom. Another reason is Jehovah's promise to Abraham for his seed to bless the world - Abraham's seed is Jesus, and by extention the anointed, heirs with referrence to a promise. This is what Jehovah had purposed in himself from the beginning.
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