Re:When is it Too Late? - 2005/03/13 19:09donbodo wrote: Thanks for the comments, everybody. I'll take them into consideration when I edit the essay.
ePig, I'd love to post it on this site. But how do I do that?
hey Don, admin will give you author privileges. That will mean you can go to the articles section and you will see "new" at the left bottom corner. Just click on there and you will get access to the authoring screen. Just type your stuff or cut and paste. Admin will clean it up and if you're lucky give you a cool image to go with it. If you have one in mind just email it to him at admin@bethsarim.com
Looking forward to seeing the finished version.
Much love and spirit
ePig Knowledge puffs up, but love builds up. If anyone thinks he has acquired knowledge of something, he does not yet know it just as he ought to know it. But if anyone loves God, this one is known by him - 1 Cor 8:1-3
| | The topic has been locked.
Phi
Admin Admin
Posts: 278
Re:When is it Too Late? - 2005/03/13 23:40Just type your stuff or cut and paste. Admin will clean it up and if you're lucky give you a cool image to go with it
What...you mean if we submit and article....we get a free 'makeover' too??!
| | The topic has been locked.
Victory
User Senior Boarder
Posts: 16
Re:When is it Too Late? - 2005/03/14 01:46Hi Don
First, I appreciate you putting up that article for us to give you feedback. That speaks volumes to me about your humility and spirit and desire to get things right.
Second, I’ve looked around your website, and though I personally have a different take on the reform issue, I do appreciate the love behind what you’re your doing.
Third, I’ve already shown my hand in the earlier corporate governance thread with Poly. I personally believe the WT organization is a terminal case. But again, I applaud your motives and love for the brothers. And you’ve explained yourself very well. That makes it easier for the computer-challenged like me to read.
Fourth—can I raise something for you to address? No rush, either in the present or a subsequent article. It’s an area where I think you and I might be on common ground.
The issue is this: What is reformed is dependant on who you have in mind implementing the reform. So who specifically do you want to reform?
This is a genuine issue, and here’s my reason for thinking this would be well worth clarifying for your audience.
The Watchtower Society inc., is a legal entity. It’s the mother ship for all the other baby societies and legal associations around the world. Some of these legal entities have “Jehovah’s Witnesses” in their name, some do not.
Now, when brothers talk about the “organization” or “the Society” or “Jehovah’s Witnesses,” what are they talking about? When you drill down and ask the brothers, most have not given it much thought.
You’ll typically get vague answers. The boundaries are blurred. Most don’t know where the legal entities start and finish, let alone where the spiritual ones start and end. If something comes out on Society letterhead—it’s equated with being from the anointed, when usually it’s not.
And the term “organization” is often thrown about as a sacrosanct euphemism for some mystical thing that we should not question.
Now here’s where it gets tricky. Any legal entity, any association, any charitable trust or any other corporate vehicle will always be subject to the state. It has to apply to the state to come into existence. Then it is required to file annual activity reports, etc. In the most important areas, it’s always answerable to the state.
Also legal entities are like houses. They are constructed of the materials from the world in which we live. So these entities are by nature physical and fleshly. They are the constructs of this capitalistic, adversarial, and democratically obsessed world.
If we accept that that God has decreed that the systems and institutions of this world will go down—then we must accept that the Watchtower Society Inc and all its legal babies born of this world, must also go down.
So back to the issue. When you say reform Jehovah’s Witnesses, obviously you don’t mean the legal entities with “Jehovah’s Witnesses” or such in the name? Besides legal entities can’t repent, they’re not-conscious.
So, if we’ve eliminated those entities from reform, we’re then left with the people controlling and transmitting flawed policies via those entities:
So who are these people exactly? Is that the governing body? Actually No.
As of 2000, according to the Watchtower Society’s own press releases, the governing body resigned all directorships. Legally they do not have any say over what the legal entities do. They’ve handed over the reigns. They’re not actually in control anymore!
That chart of authority you have on your website is subservient to the new directors. Now lawyers and corporate-minded individuals are the directors.
But . . . and this is the scary part, it’s via the legal entities (Watchtower Society et al) that Jehovah’s Witnesses happily receive direction as being divinely directed. And the mere suggestion to die-hard believers that the Society isn’t divinely backed will have you hung and quartered.
So the problem is this: If you want to generate reform from the bottom up—up from where to where, or who to whom?
Up from the unincorporated Witnesses through to the directors? But the rank and file Witnesses have absolutely no say or influence over the legal entities or the directors. Besides, even if they did, that only addresses the corporate, not the spiritual problems.
Up from the unincorporated Witnesses to the governing body? But the governing body passed whatever bowl of spiritual stew they had to these legal directors. They no longer have the power or authority to change anything.
So who is the reform movement pitched at?
Which ever way you cut it, the unincorporated Witnesses really have no say or influence over the “organization.” And sorry to belabor the point, but it’s the legal “organization” these days that’s calling the shots. And that legal entity doesn’t seem to be worth reforming—patch it up so it will go down as part of this system?
The area for common ground:
Don—reform—yes I accept that needs to be. But reform of who or what?
Is it not reform of the unincorporated individual witnesses themselves—a reforming of each willing individual’s heart and mind?
Reform on that individual level, detached from the worry and burden of reforming an entire corporate colossus seems to be more in line with the spirit of God’s Word.
The scriptural backing for this viewpoint?
Jesus spoke of a time “. . . when the true worshipers will worship the Father with spirit and truth, for, indeed, the Father is looking for suchlike ones to worship him.”—John 4:24.
These “ones” were not formerly worshipping in spirit and truth. Something changed—hence a reform. But it’s a reform of individuals, not an en-mass organisational reform.
Also . . . ““I will put my law within them, and in their heart I shall write it. And I will become their God, and they themselves will become my people. And they will no more teach each one his companion and each one his brother, saying, ‘KNOW Jehovah!’ for they will all of them know me, from the least one of them even to the greatest one of them,” is the utterance of Jehovah.”—Jeremiah 31:34
Here Jehovah performs spiritual surgery on individual hearts—He takes responsibility to teach “each one” from “the least” to “the greatest.”
The picture emerging is that of Jehovah God teaching individuals. Sure, after that they become a group—“my people.” But if these people existed previously in one reformable organisation, then presumably Jehovah would’ve said that. _____________
Now—if God’s spirit has injected a desire in your heart to go reforming—then go reforming. Who knows, maybe God’s Spirit has prompted me to assist you via a gentle nudge. Something to steer you to helping individuals within the organization, rather than worrying about reforming the institution itself.
That way you still allow for people’s good motives and love to bring about a change of heart and repent if necessary.
Any rate, I feel it must be God’s Spirit helping me to sit up way past my bed-time (after 1:am and I’ve got work tomorrow) and gather my thoughts for this reply—something I don’t often do.
With much love and affection my brother
Victory
| | The topic has been locked.
Eden
User Platinum Boarder
Posts: 195
Re:When is it Too Late? - 2005/03/14 23:17Hi Don and all!
Wow, some thought provoking stuff here!!
I really enjoyed the scriptures you highlighted from the prophets Don. Jehovah pleaded with the people to repent.
IMHO, it has incorrectly been assumed the WT is the modern 'Israel'.
Ancient Israel, God's chosen people, fell into apostasy; worshipping false Gods etc. God's modern people have done the same. The WT is one of those false gods IMO. But while this entity is a lost cause, the people, Gods people are not.
EW has done some good by highlighting the absence of 'spiritual paradise' - but he has discouraged shouting it from the roof tops. Perhaps this 'reform' idea is a way of doing just that.
Something that has always intrigued me is, Jesus preached to Gods people - are we not supposed to follow his example?
| | The topic has been locked.
polemotheos
User Platinum Boarder
Posts: 530
Re:When is it Too Late? - 2005/03/15 00:50Eden wrote: Something that has always intrigued me is, Jesus preached to Gods people - are we not supposed to follow his example? Seems we need a well articulated message before we go out preaching. Seems we are on our way.Your Peace, Surrender, In You, YHVH Re-connect Co-operative
| | The topic has been locked.
donbodo
User Platinum Boarder
Posts: 125
Re:When is it Too Late? - 2005/03/15 15:29Victory,
Thank you for bringing out those fine points.
On the matter of whether the WT is a terminal case, you may be right. But as my essay demonstrates, to be fair, they must still be given the opportunity to change their ways. If they refuse to listen, so be it. At least we did our part.
I am not so sure that the GB has relinquished as much control as you say they have. They certainly have delegated much to others. But they still direct spiritual operations, and the matters the reform moverment is concerned about have to do with conformity to biblical standards. You are probably right that the legal branch of the corporation has a say in matters concerning disfellowshipping, etc., but I think the GB still has control over these issues. If I am incorrect, then we will have to ascertain who truly is calling the shots and direct our efforts toward such parties. But since our reasoning is scriptural, the GB seems like the best bet.
Forum 
Seems we are on our way.