Re:Baptism - 2004/09/16 20:40Hi all how are you all. Baptizim has become a scary thing 4 me you see I've been caught up on the subject of children making the choice to dedicate their young life to JAH. That fact that our organization has change different meanings to our dedication is really not to much of an issue because we dedicate our lives to Jehovah. But really if to answer those questions is to proves that you are capable and they become the assurance that you are capable to dedicate your life to JAH, really what dose it actually mean to dedicate your life to JAH???? You see we have been making the standard for who JAH accepts based mainly on Knowladge even though their life too needs to be in line with bible principles. Children who as they grow, hormones change their way of acting, what they love changes, what they desire changes how they think and what their needs are. When they make mistake maybe feel guilty and feel like they dont deserve JAH so they back away from JAH and get Disffellowshiped then we shun them and lose our abillity to help them whos fault could it be? So many to answer. Maybe we schould open up with our children and help them see the consequences of failing the dedicating of their ENTIRE life to JEHOVAH? Wat do you think
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Re:Baptism - 2004/09/16 20:41Servent1 said: "You see we have been making the standard for who JAH accepts based mainly on Knowladge even though their life too needs to be in line with bible principles. "
Absolutely agree with that one. It is so funny that we have focused so much on "the knowledge that leads to eternal life" that we actually forgot about the need for "accurate knowledge" which is what Jah's will is - first that all sorts of men, young and old, should be saved and come to an accurate knowledge of truth (1 Tim2:3,4).
This is God's will. We say "let your will be done, as in heaven also on earth". How is this will evidenced by us shunning or isolating our children, treating them like rejects.
Yes I agree about opening up to our children but what did Jah will in this regard - he said:
"9 Rejoice, young man, in your youth, and let your heart do you good in the days of your young manhood, and walk in the ways of your heart and in the things seen by your eyes."
Basically he wills that our young ones should enjoy their youth - do what you want to do according to the ways of your heart. This is what young people are like. And many of the things we see our young ones doing are just according to this very scripture.
Jah shows his attitude to young ones - namely, enjoy your youth, it is a time to do that.
Yet that sounds incredibly permissive. But there is a rider to this freedom.
"But know that on account of all these the [true] God will bring you into judgment."
Yes just remember young man, that what you do will have consequences and you will come into judgement, so don't get too cocky. Yes remember this advice -
"10 remove vexation from your heart, and ward off calamity from your flesh; for youth and the prime of life are vanity."
I guess that's where the parents come in. Helping them to ward off calamity. But that is the parent's responsibility. Unfortunately some within the congregation forget that and try to usurp that parental position. They try to intersperse themselves into the arrangement and start dictating what should be happening to our children, when Jah himself has said "enjoy your life".
The apparent motivation for the intervention is to "keep the congregation clean". But what is worse, that young people should act outwardly in a misbehaving way, consistent with youth, or for mature christian adults to walk all over the arrangements Jah has put in place for families and the proper operation of justice.
As for young ones getting baptised, a number have said that if you are old enough to marry then you are old enough to make a decision about baptism. I think that is sensible.
But what is our baptism today? An outward symbol of our dedication, yes, and definitely a request for a clean conscience since we are stuck with a sinful one, but what then? Should we have to then seek permission of a human to request a clean conscience? Who is the request made to? Is it not God (1 Peter 3:21).
Funnily enough it is not the putting away of the filth of the flesh that saves us. Simply because we cannot put that away yet. But if you were to ask any one in the organisation they would say the requirement would be that you had to be clean!!!
More to come...later
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Re:Baptism - 2004/09/16 20:42Servent1 ... I was so glad to see that you made a post at BethSarim Yes, I agree with your thought ...
Jesus was 30 when he took on his big job
A Jew had to be 30 before he could serve in the temple
Joseph was 30 before he got his full assignment
Meaning ... youth isn't an appropriate time for the heavy duty stuff ...
And spirituality is not a check list ... so many meetings, so many hours, such and such a title ...
It is a relationship with Jehovah ... one which deepens with time and knowledge and understanding ...
Someone told me recently that we aren't under law anymore ... and so what we do now is make a mistake ... (as few as possible) ... learn from it ... and get on with things ... no need for guilty, guilty, guilty ...
Rather ... the point was made earlier that it is our S&TD ... sincere and tenacious dedication ... that counts ... the tenacious part meaning ... when we make a mistake, stumble ... we get up, dust ourself off, correct what needs to be corrected ... and keep on keeping on ...
I also liked the things ePig said ...
Keep on posting friend!
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Re:Baptism - 2004/09/16 20:43Hi Servent1. In answer to your question, I'm fine thanks! Nice to 'meet' you. I totally agree with what you say. I waited till I was 20 to get baptised (and I was STILL too young! I should have waited, I feel.) And yes, I was made to feel like a bit of an unspiritual freak for waiting that long to get baptised. Though my dedication was made to Jehovah, I didn't really know who he was - or who I was - at the time, I have to admit my baptism was about becoming a JW in my mind and in the mind of all those about me. That was very wrong.
Yes, the dedication is important and so is proper baptism. After all the Jews were dedicated to Jehovah in Jesus day, but more was needed. Jews today are technically dedicated to Jehovah, yet along with sincere dedication, proper baptism, according to Jesus command, "saves". 1 Pet 3:21
I absolutely agree that parents should make sure that their children understand the seriousness of the course they take when they become dedicated, baptised Christians. And like Evening, I think if we are to truly follow in Jesus footsteps then we should at least consider that he was not baptised untill his thirties.
Much Philia Servent1. Iook forward to 'seeing' you again.
Izzy.
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Re:Baptism - 2004/09/16 20:44Hey thanks guys from my heart. My kids (4) are so messed up because of the lack of love I showed toward them as to if they understood baptisim. I have been ramming it down their throats because it effects my standing in the congo. We been over it time and time again they would pass with flying colours it didnt matter to me if they new what they were doing as long as the congo accepted them, we were even told in our meeting that if we werent bap we wouldnt get saved. Hows that for our kids, I never even blink an eye lid, just thought yeah you Kids better get on with it or else. The fact that the ?s 4 bap have changed is just 2 much I have prayed to Jah for forgiveness because of my blind faith UP untill now I have been a follower of THE ORGANIZATION, and have been doing everything they say so I am not cast OUTSIDE !!JEHOVAHS!! organization. Funny that eh? Thank you for your kind notes My family are alone in what we are learnning so you can understand why Ill will be leaning on yous all with Jahs help. May Jah find you all in good heart because it is from there we will recieve salvations Jere 17:10. I was bap 1987 but 2 mnths ago I just begain my dedication to Jehovah, and now even my children are qouteing me such Scripture as above. Im am so grateful freind for all the support I have recieve from u all may Jah bless you all in his love.Titus 3:15 YOUR BROTHER
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Re:Baptism - 2004/09/16 20:46Isaiah5915 said: "It appears to me that it is essentially a denominational baptism now, in that it is as much about joining a specific group and signifying loyalty to the WT as symbolizing dedication to God."
That would have to be a fair enought comment given what the WT has put into the baptism statement.
Isaiah5915 said: "If this is so, is this baptism valid? For instance, in the light of Acts 19:1-5, is is possible that no one who was baptised after 1985 as a Witness could become anointed, as they were not baptised as per Jesus command's"
And it is also hard not to question what baptism we have in the face of this as well. As mentioned to you before Izzy, I really do wonder if the "baptism in the name of the Lord Jesus" is still to come i.e. the Matt 28:18,19 work is still future.
I need to think about this some more. My inclinations at the moment is that the baptism we have undertaken while of personal value is probably something like the one that John carried out. There is something greater needed.
I am not sure I would use the word "invalid", it could be too strong, since there may be personal validity to this act for those of us who have gone through this form of baptism. Just not sure it has significance from a salvation view in terms of 1 Pet 3:21. When I read these words I also wonder if there is a specific time delimitation and context. By this I mean there is an apparent correspondency to Noah, where people were saved from one system into another. Following that pattern might suggest baptism with a specific purpose of salvation into the new system.
I also mean this in the broadest and most inclusive sense. The only criteria required to get on the original ark was simply to believe what Noah was saying. No requirement to preach go to meetings etc - just get on board!
Forum 
Nice to 'meet' you. I totally agree with what you say. I waited till I was 20 to get baptised (and I was STILL too young! I should have waited, I feel.) And yes, I was made to feel like a bit of an unspiritual freak for waiting that long to get baptised.