Even IF the WT was "Israel"... - 2005/03/15 08:58....Could we worship acceptably outside the Watchtower arrangement?
I don't believe for one moment that the WT corresponds to "Israel" of prophesy. I think there is no credible evidence for that belief whatsoever.
HOWEVER, if we pretend for a moment that WT was "Israel", would that mean that one had to worship within the Society's arrangement in order to be approved by God? Apparently some think so. Which is why they urge Witnesses to stay with the WT and to keep attending meetings, despite the fact that many are suffering terribly under the WT's yoke and it's deeply tainted 'spiritual feeding' program.
But does the reasoning of these ones stand up to examination? I don't believe it does at all. I feel that even if the WT were "Israel" it would be completely acceptable to worship God from outside the Watchtower. And I am hoping that we can discuss this issue in this thread.
After all, if the Watchtower did not correspond with "Israel", and further, if it would not be necessary to woship within the Watchtower even if it were "Israel", then the insistent urging of those who maintain that the suffering and spiritually abused JW 'sheep' must remain in the apostate WT 'pen' in order to please God, would be particularly diabolical, IMHO. Hopefully we can reach some understanding together on this matter. I'd be very interested in hearing the Scriptural reasonings both of those who feel we must remain within the walls of WT and of those who think otherwise. And I will post further on this subject soon too. I would also be interested to hear the testimony of the spirit...what I mean by that is: For those who have stopped worshipping in association with the WT, but who are still spiritually active, what has been your spiritual experience since then? Has there been tangiable spiritual improvement, or otherwise? And those who have never been JW's and never associated with the WT, what is your spiritual experience?
Much Philia.
Phi.
Post edited by: Phi, at: 2005/03/17 11:35
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Phi
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Re:Even IF the WT was - 2005/03/16 06:53With regard to the diabolical reasonings of those who claim that we must continue to worship along with our brothers within the idolatrous WT arrangement (even though they acknowledge that the WT is apostate) see these further comments on this thread in the research section called 'False Gods':
Re:Even IF the WT was - 2005/03/16 14:10I think there is much to consider in the scriptures regarding this topic. I will post some thoughts soon.
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amosfamily
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Re:Even IF the WT was - 2005/03/16 19:34I think that the WT is more representative of Jerusalem. So many verses point to her coming judgement: Matthew 23:37 37 “Jerusalem, Jerusalem, the killer of the prophets and stoner of those sent forth to her
Amos 2:5 5 And I will send a fire into Judah, and it must devour the dwelling towers of Jerusalem.’
Ezekiel 5:5-6 5 “This is what the Sovereign Lord Jehovah has said, ‘This is Jerusalem. In the midst of the nations I have set her, with lands all around her. 6 And she proceeded to behave rebelliously against my judicial decisions in wickedness more than the nations, and against my statutes more than the lands that are all around her, for my judicial decisions they rejected and, as for my statutes, they did not walk in them.’
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Phi
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Re:Even IF the WT was "Israel"... - 2005/03/17 01:07Hi there Amosfamily.
Yes, I know that the WT arrangemt is said to correspond to several things at the same time. Jerusalem being one of them. Of course, none of those verses give any indication of specific application to the WTBTS. You recall that the Society has long cast the other Christian groups of 'Christendom' as rebellious apostate Israel. Certainly organized Christian religion as a whole fits the descriptions of Jerusalem given in those verses you quoted above far better than the WT does alone.
However, assuming that the WT was "Jerusalem" and so was prophesied to share Jerusalems fate, do we have to remain in "Jerusalem", remain with the WT? Many people make that claim. They say "The WT is Jerusalem and we must remain in the WT to be acceptable to God. We can't leave unti we see the "disgusting thing". Im sure such comments are familiar to you. So, many people, hearing such things, feel they must stay within the Watchtower arrangement to please God, believeing it to be "Jerusalem", even though they may feel spiritually abused and poisoned there, weighed down and tired of the WT spiritual sins.
However, whether we take the faithful Jews or the Christians as an example during this period before the appearance of the disgusting thing in Jerusalem, NEITHER of thoe groups were required to remain in Jerusalem (or Israel for that matter), as we shall see. So if the WT did correspond to Jerusalem then neither would JW's be required to remain with the WT in order to worship God acceptably.
Did the Christians have to stay in Jerusalem, or in Israel's territory, until they saw the disgusting thing? Absolutely not.
In Acts 8 we hear of a persecution of Christians in Jerusalem which occured forty years before its destruction. Many speak of the persecution that they have experienced at the hands of the WT today, with people being DFd and losing contact with friends and family, shunned and treated as "spiritually dead" ones and so on. What was the early Christians response to this persecution? Did they say: "Well, I know its tough, but this is God's city, we can't leave until we see the "disgusting thing", any who leave are leaving Jehovah's arrangement"? NO! They fled! They ALL left Jerusalem according to Acts 8:1.
They left and they began to start Christian congregations outside Jerusalem and far outside Israel. Nor werre they unfaithful for doing so, because it is clear that God was with them. (Acts 8:4, 5) So if the WT's arrangement is "Jerusalem", why do others insist we must stay when the early Christians did not?
"Consequently, those who had been scattered...went through as far as Phoenicia (Lebanon) and Cyprus and Antioch (Turkey)" Acts 11:19-21.
These faithful Christians left Jerusalem and Israel far behind, decades before the arrival of the "disgusting thing" in Jerusalem.
I'll get back to the idea that Jews had to stay in Jerusalem or Israel's territory in order to be considered faithful in another post.
Much Philia.
Phi.
Post edited by: Phi, at: 2005/03/17 03:15
Post edited by: Phi, at: 2005/03/17 08:13
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amosfamily
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Re:Even IF the WT was - 2005/03/17 20:20Dear Phi
I don't think anyone should tell anyone else to remain if they don't want to. As you point out, christians came and went to and from Jerusalem. I consider myself to 'have left the building', because I am judged to be inactive, and I attend 2/3 meetings.
However, Jerusalem was corrupt long before 66CE. Why did Jesus have anything to do with it? Why did he support the temple arrangement? (for example, sending the man cured of leprsoy to the priest, in harmony with the law)
Initially Jesus told his disciples to "go continually to the lost sheep of the house of Israel". Later, he said they would witness in "Jerusalem, Judea, andto the most distant part of the earth".
At this point I believe that the lost sheep are inhabiting our KH's. For example, there are two families that my wife and I are gradually showing these new truths. They would not know us if we didn't go to some meetings.
So until our system of worship comes to an end - pre-empted by the appearance of the disgusting thing, I feel there is still something good to be done on the inside.
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