False Gods - 2005/03/15 13:27When the Israelites danced around the Golden Calf, who was Jehovah angry with, the statue or the people?
When Jehovah, thru the prophet Amos, pleaded for a return to him, did he plead for Bethel to return or for the people to return?
It is obvious, Jehovah gets angry with and pleads for a return of PEOPLE, not statues or cities.
JW's are people. 6,000,000+ individuals. It is to these ones Jehovah pleads to return to Him, to seek for Him.
The WT society is merely the city the people are enamoured with, or the statue they are dancing around. The city is one that will not continue, and a statue that will perish.
Is it possible to worship in spirit and truth while participating in worship of a false God? What association does light have with dark?
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Stormy
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Re:False Gods - 2005/03/15 16:04This is so strange. I just posted on PC and I had made a post where I was going to put something along the lines of "Anyone that can sell dancing around the golden calf (WT) as well as he does is darn near brilliant." Man, I thought that analogy was PROFOUND. Then I was going to post something along the lines of that here. Then I read this post lol.
Is it possible to worship in spirit and truth while participating in worship of a false God? What association does light have with dark?
There seems to be this new type of "Jehovah's Witness" that believes it's possible to worship in a place where they look all around them and the people they are worshipping with have an idolatrous relationship with an idol (WT).
They often fall back on "did Jesus tell the Jews to leave the temple" or "did Jesus tell the Jews to forsake their Jewish brothers". That sound convincing on the surface. But in reality it doesn't work for them. The disciples were going to the temple and bringing the Jews to truth ... THOUSANDS at a time. They didn't sit nice and quiet in these temples. That's why Stephen was stoned he was outspoken. The people propogating this belief are going to the halls saying nothing and it's of no benefit for the 100 or so odd people that still centralize their worship around an idol (WT). It's because they believe God's house resides in the WT. God's house is in an idol? That's like saying the temple was in the middle of the golden calf. Doesn't make much sense does it?
Another point often brought up is that God has always had an Organization. Now, when we say Orginization we think of a group of organized individuals. But nothing could be farther from the truth. The Israelites certainly weren't Organized. Well, maybe for short periods of time. But for the most part they were scattered by God for disobedience. Scattered - Organized. Sounds like an oxymoron to me. If God has always had an Organization on earth and for the most part it was Israel why did Jesus come for the lost sheep of Israel? Who were the lost sheep of Israel? The ten tribes, Ephraim the ones that were scattered and blended into the nations. Doesn't sound very organized to me.
Then we have about 40 years of a Christian church. Was it organized for the most part yes. Then after the apostles passed *poof* no record of any type of true Christian organization. The great apostacy or falling away obliterated any type of centralized Christian organization.
Then what were led to believe is that whamo by God's arrangement here comes Charles Taze Russell who would start an organization founded on so many false doctrines such as the arrival of Christ in 1876, pyramidology, freemason tendencies, false cries of armegeddon in 1914. zionism and the list could go on. That was God's arrangement? This man was used by God's decree. Oh, and then it gets better when Russell dies God puts a megolamaniac, drunken, tryant to fill Russel's void? It would take a whole page to list his false doctrines. Amazingly it just gets worse from there! Seriously, God help us all if these people are right that we are to stick with this God dishonering Organization to be approved by God.
All I could say is so what if the "annointed" reside in this God dishonering Organization. What the heck are they doing to help bring the truth to light? What are they doing to help bring people to pure worship? Are their bringing them into the "Idol" bringing them into pure worship?
Some people cling to this Organization like the Jews did to God's house in 70 AD. I'm sure they knew that there were a lot of God dishonering practices going on there but hey that was God's house there was certain protection there. Can you imagine running into the temple during the Roman seige thinking you were safe because it was God's temple and then when it's set on fire and the gold starts melting and dripping onto their skin while their being incenerated ... the shock? They probably were feeling pretty betrayed by God. But Jesus told the disciples the temple was going to be destroyed the disciples then warned Jews by the thousands and they got out of there.
When are people going to realize that temples, mountains, organizations won't do a darn thing to save you? Not even the ones God Himself instituted could save them. If it's going down like they say the WT is why are they sticking around if they aren't speaking from the roof tops letting their brothers and sisters know what's going to go down? Sitting on your hands at the hall won't amount to a hill of beans in the end. All their doing is burying their minas and when Jesus comes back what's going to be their excuse?
The thing is all religions are going to be reduced to a heap of trash. So if the WT is meeting the same fate as all other religions what's that say about the WT?
Wake up people.
Agape, Stormy
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Eden
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Posts: 195
Re:False Gods - 2005/03/15 16:50Hi Stormy, (great minds think alike huh, don't roll your eyes )
Great comments there! The history of JW's is surely dodgy! I shudder every time I remember saying and thinking 'spiritual paradise' when the WT was mentioned....{shudder}
Something Jesus said really hit home for me, Luke 12:54-56
Then he went on to say also to the crowds: “When YOU see a cloud rising in western parts, at once YOU say, ‘A storm is coming,’ and it turns out so. And when YOU see that a south wind is blowing, YOU say, ‘There will be a heat wave,’ and it occurs. Hypocrites, YOU know how to examine the outward appearance of earth and sky, but how is it YOU do not know how to examine this particular time?
When I read this I thought, 'why does he charge them with hypocrisy?' I had always associated hypocrisy with more obvious cases like, 'pedophile 'christian' priests' or a peace activist with a gun. But here, Jesus equates the intelectual capacity to discern one thing as the ability to discern another. Hence the principle, Therefore, if one knows how to do what is right and yet does not do it, it is a sin for him.
This is a sobering peice of information.
Intelectually, JW's discern the apostasy of the Catholic Church. They relish the tabloid 'reports' of child abuse in the churches as an 'expose' of false religion.
Intellectually, they discern the Elders and Overseers of their congregations are often the reason the sheep are so unhappy.
Intellectually, they discern the conditions in apostate ancient Israel as existing in their congregations.
But HYPOCRITICALLY they continue to assert they are the true religion, that they have spiritual paradise, that the Elders have been appointed by holy spirit.
Actually, the purpose of this topic was to investigate the thought that:
The WT does not represent Israel, it represents the Golden Calf.
JW's represent Israel, inasmuch as they have dedicated themselves to Jah. (IMHO, this anti-typical Israel is not limited to JW's but for the purposes of this discusion and for simplicities sake could we limit it to JW's - the principles learned can be applied accross the board)
Peace and Love Eden
Post edited by: Eden, at: 2005/03/15 16:52
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Phi
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Re:False Gods - 2005/03/16 06:45The WT does not represent Israel, it represents the Golden Calf.
Yes, powerful reasoning. So, in the scenario that Jehovah's Witnesses are the "Israel" of Hebrew prophesy, which many JW's believe, the WT is in fact the idol that the JW's worship and which has led them into apostasy. Interestingly, even those who beleive that the JW's are apostate "Israel" also accept that the WT is an "idol". YET, their claim is effectively that "you brothers and sisters must join us in attending the meetings of the Idol, you must join your brothers in their idol worship, because that's where the 'Israelites' are, and you must be with the household of 'Israelites' in order to be acceptable to God". That's incredibly twisted reasoning IMHO. As if Jehovah would have required the faithful Israelites to join their 'brothers' in attending the worship of the Golden Calf or of Baal in order to remain acceptable to him. No! He would require them to "separate themselves" from that tainted worship surely? And just because these "Israelites" call their idolatry tainted worship "worship of Jehovah" doesn't mean that it is. After all, the worship of the Golden Calf was justified with the statement that their worship of it was a "festival to Jehovah" (Ex. 32:5) But calling it "worship of Jehovah" does not mean that God accepts it as such, if in fact is it idolatrous.
Philia.
Phi.
Post edited by: Phi, at: 2005/03/16 06:47
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Eden
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Posts: 195
Re:False Gods - 2005/03/16 09:52Thanks Phi!
That is exactly what I was trying to say.
The Jews of Jesus' day had fallen into exactly the same thing. They had forgotten the 'spirit of the law' and created additions to it in an attempt to keep the letter of it. So that they're 'system' had become the 'be-all and end-all' whereas by definition, Jah is.
The seperatist pharisee mindset, created an 'elite Israel illusion' - ignoring the promised blessing to ALL the nations thru the promised seed. They were haughty and just as Jesus said to the pharisee Nicodemus in John 3, 'the light came into the world but the men loved the darkness'.
These hypocrites convinced themselves that because they had as their base Moses and Abraham as their father, that they would have Jah blessing. Ironically, JW's claim the same spiritual 'geneology' as though it is that that brings blessing. But, like the apostate Jews of the 1st Century, their system comes before Jehovah.
As we are well aware, this system of things has a conclusion. Whereas, with a speck of faith, the people will live forever.
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eicerrus
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Re:False Gods - 2005/03/16 12:46Hi Eden Stormy and Phi
this is an most interesting topic but i hope i can add some things to it.well eden is it possible to worship in spirt and truth in an association. well lets look how we worship in spirt and truth normaly. basicly talk with other people and read about loving bible discussion. we contrubutie evenly with out any probelms the atmosphere is loving and so is the peolpe and faith is the only captain of the ship! Did i mention any halls in there or any speakers with higher positions than each other or an over all felling of "your not welcome".. the list could go on and on..thats how i feel about that..its a bit judgemental but fellings dont know the word judge? Stormy i feel like you know the watchtower and organsation all to well. i know there millions of things that they have done wrong and they should wake up...But i have a grand father he has been a JW over 40 years ..thats not just most of hes life it IS his life ya know. He IS someone there he HAS a role..but who is he if hes not there? when ever i see a person get punished or trialed I try to put my self in there shoes even though they go through it all they just want to be loved and they feel they the association can give it to them becuase they have got it before. Eden how true luke 12:54-56 is especially about how YOU will know , but you gota do somthing bout it...i just had i laugh when you said peace activist with a gun you try and tell bush that! One thing that really gets me is that the society obstrusted the love flow from jah..THE ONE MOST PRECIOUS GIFT GOD GIVES US TAKIN AWAY!! and all in the name of jah..boy that makes me mad . well in ending i only wrote this in my opinion and i hope it helps
Forum 
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but i hope i can add some things to it.well eden is it possible to worship in spirt and truth in an association. well lets look how we worship in spirt and truth normaly. basicly talk with other people and read about loving bible discussion. we contrubutie evenly with out any probelms the atmosphere is loving and so is the peolpe and faith is the only captain of the ship! Did i mention any halls in there or any speakers with higher positions than each other or an over all felling of "your not welcome".. the list could go on and on..thats how i feel about that..its a bit judgemental but fellings dont know the word judge? Stormy i feel like you know the watchtower and organsation all to well. i know there millions of things that they have done wrong and they should wake up...But i have a grand father he has been a JW over 40 years ..thats not just most of hes life it IS his life ya know. He IS someone there he HAS a role..but who is he if hes not there? when ever i see a person get punished or trialed I try to put my self in there shoes even though they go through it all they just want to be loved and they feel they the association can give it to them becuase they have got it before. Eden how true luke 12:54-56 is especially about how YOU will know , but you gota do somthing bout it...i just had i laugh when you said peace activist with a gun 
you try and tell bush that! One thing that really gets me is that the society obstrusted the love flow from jah..THE ONE MOST PRECIOUS GIFT GOD GIVES US TAKIN AWAY!! and all in the name of jah..boy that makes me 
mad 