Was the holy spirit created? - 2005/03/19 11:19Hi this may sound like a funny question. But in my mind it is the one that can dispell the wts of it's ubiquious holy spirit doctrine. Here is the reasoning;
The wts teaches that the holy spirit is some force and as if it always existed.
But the only one that has always existed is Jehovah, no one or thing else. Is this not true?
We also know that Jesus was the first to be created. So Jehovah could not have used something that did not exist so as to created Jesus. Holy spirit could not have been used to created Jesus! For Jesus was the first of his achievements not the holy spirit.
Now we see the wts is backed into a corner. In rebutting my essay on omnipresence the wts has already been forced into saying the holy spirit is ubiquious or omnipresent. Now if they want to keep there doctrine they must also say it is co-eternal with God having never been created.
Re:Was the holy spirit created? - 2005/03/19 11:26If the holy spirit was created what was it created of? What was Jesus created of for that matter. Was not Jehovah the only one there? So only of Jehovah does anything or anyone exist. And therefore everything and everyone is made of Jehovah.
I am thinking of making an essay called theophysics
Re:Was the holy spirit created? - 2005/03/19 12:59Mars - Interesting. Where is this current doctrine on the Holy Spirit to be found in the literature? Could you copy it here for us? If that's their reasoning on it - that's ridiculous - that God created Holy Spirit! Why do they make such a big to-do over God's omnipresence? It's just one more thing, imo, that they just had to be different than 'religianity' about...*sigh* God's presence is EVERYWHERE in EVERYTHING for those who have eyes to see it...as He is the Creator - how could it not be so?
My belief is.... Holy Spirit is and always was Jah, in Him and of Him - His essence if you wish to put it that way - His very 'being'. His power and His strength - everything and anything that emmanates from Him.
I think of Jesus being begotten kinda like 'fission' - a split-off from God's being - not in terms of being 'created' as they created the cosmos and earth and Adam.... it was different... somehow. Messiah is a part of 'I AM' - a part of, but not the same as - truly God's only first-born son. Could our little trains be running along the same tracks, Mars? This is my thinking, too: What was Jesus created of for that matter. Was not Jehovah the only one there? So only of Jehovah does anything or anyone exist. And therefore everything and everyone is made of Jehovah.
I never liked the term 'impersonal force' - how much more personal can you get than to share your power and strength with someone? !!! However, it has been likened to electricity, and that brings it 'down' to something - an invisible and incredibly powerful force - that we humans with itty bitty brains can understand.(a little!)
That's what I think of it anyway... but I could be wrong.
It's so strange, isn't it... You go along nicely studying the Bible and thinking you're doing everything 'just so' with a fine understanding... then someone throws a wrench into the works. You must believe this in that way - over the tiniest nit-picking things - of which they have absolutely NO knowledge - just poor guesses at best.... another *sigh* - or should I escalate it to an 'Aarrggghh'?!!
Keep chuggin' along, brother - btw - 'theophysics' sounds ve-e-e-e-rrry interestingk! I watched a PBS special the other nite about a book by Brian Greene - 'The Elegant Universe' - about the philosophies of relativity and quantum mechanics and the 'string' theory. It fascinated me like physics never has (lol!) I thought throughout that they were going a long, long way around trying to prove the existance of God to themselves. All the answers to their wildest questions may very well lie in 'theophysics', if only they would believe! ~Philia~ Bea
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polemotheos
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Re:Was the holy spirit created? - 2005/03/19 13:57Bea wrote: Mars - Interesting. Where is this current doctrine on the Holy Spirit to be found in the literature? Could you copy it here for us? Bea I have already typed it to the paradise cafe forum. I am blocked from going there to get it so could you get it and paste it here. It is in one of my last threads something like "WTS rebuttal of omnipresence".
Re:Was the holy spirit created? - 2005/03/19 14:16Bea wrote: that's ridiculous - that God created Holy Spirit! If God did not create the holy spirit then the holy spirit as you say is God.
All that is created is made of God.
The sad thing that I see is that the wts ascribes characteristic of God to the holy spirit doctrine when the bible explicity was speaking of Jehovah. For example every scripture describing Jehovah's omnipresence they interpret it as speaking of the holy spirit when infact it was explicitly speaking of Jehovah him self.
If we were to say the holy force is the active spirit then the holy spirit is not omnipresent nor is it God or even co-eternal with God. This is what I believe.
Re:Was the holy spirit created? - 2005/03/19 16:36I am thinking of making an essay called theophysics
Hey Pole, cool, looking forward to that.
Yes Bea, theophysics verrrrry interesting.
ePig
BTW Pole, I use this name as a term of endearment - it is not Pole as in Polish, but Pole as in Pollee - like Polleemo- theos
Much spirit bro Knowledge puffs up, but love builds up. If anyone thinks he has acquired knowledge of something, he does not yet know it just as he ought to know it. But if anyone loves God, this one is known by him - 1 Cor 8:1-3
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I watched a PBS special the other nite about a book by Brian Greene - 'The Elegant Universe' - about the philosophies of relativity and quantum mechanics and the 'string' theory. It fascinated me like physics never has (lol!) I thought throughout that they were going a long, long way around trying to prove the existance of God to themselves. All the answers to their wildest questions may very well lie in 'theophysics', if only they would believe!
but Pole as in Pollee - like Polleemo- theos 