Re:Will There Be Anything Left? - 2005/03/23 13:48Pole, I agree with you that someone who is pro-war does not understand the true meaning of Christianity. However, I also am in agreement with e-pig. Baptism is about one's embarkation into a new life of following Jesus. It's where it all starts. All they really know at this point is that they want to follow Jesus and pattern their lives according to his teachings. It doesn't mean that they have already done this. It means that they plan to do this. But they may have a long way to go. I think that if a pro-war person got baptized and really tried to do what was right, he would change his viewpoint soon enough.
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polemotheos
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Re:Will There Be Anything Left? - 2005/03/23 15:34Here is the question; Should we not teach disciples to understand the true meaning of Christianity before we baptize them?
Re:Will There Be Anything Left? - 2005/03/23 15:50Yes, but the question is: where do we draw the line? I said that about the pro-war scenario because it seemed like a big deal to me. But maybe I'm being too much of a stickler. And what about lesser issues?
How much did the Ethiopian eunuch know before Philip baptized him? Looks like one scripture from Isaiah.
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Eden
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Re:Will There Be Anything Left? - 2005/03/23 21:262 cents.
I believe we should not be so hasty in baptizing anyone. This is not a case of judging them, but a case of informing them of the seriousness of the thing. If they want to be baptized then, well and good - but we should not talk them into it as though they are doomed to hell with out it. Remember the father draws us to the son. This point of view is inspired by Jesus' words in Luke 14: 25 - 35
Now great crowds were traveling with him, and he turned and said to them: “If anyone comes to me and does not hate his father and mother and wife and children and brothers and sisters, yes, and even his own soul, he cannot be my disciple. Whoever is not carrying his torture stake and coming after me cannot be my disciple. For example, who of YOU that wants to build a tower does not first sit down and calculate the expense, to see if he has enough to complete it? Otherwise, he might lay its foundation but not be able to finish it, and all the onlookers might start to ridicule him, saying, ‘This man started to build but was not able to finish.’ Or what king, marching to meet another king in war, does not first sit down and take counsel whether he is able with ten thousand troops to cope with the one that comes against him with twenty thousand? If, in fact, he cannot do so, then while that one is yet far away he sends out a body of ambassadors and sues for peace. Thus, you may be sure, none of YOU that does not say good-bye to all his belongings can be my disciple.
And here is the consequence of embarking on the 'tower construction':
“Salt, to be sure, is fine. But if even the salt loses its strength, with what will it be seasoned? It is suitable neither for soil nor for manure. People throw it outside. Let him that has ears to listen, listen.”
If a man who is pro-war gets baptized, his eternal life prospects depend on his own faith - the person who baptizes him is merely a functionary.
Post edited by: Eden, at: 2005/03/23 21:30
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Josh
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Re:Will There Be Anything Left? - 2005/03/24 04:23This is an interesting conversation. On reflecting upon what's been said, on my own feelings, and most important the words of Jesus I have come to a personal conclusion on this.
If someone about to go to war or who believes wars are necessary were to come to me and ask me to help them get baptized I would. Two caveats: 1. The person's general demeanor would be important to me. Does he or she act and speak as someone who is taking this seriously, with a sincere heart. 2. I would ask them to agree to spend the next few weeks after their baptism reading the four Gospels and learning more about their Teacher and Master Jesus Christ and praying to God that he may show them the way they should go.
In this way I would not stand in their way towards baptism, towards their heart's yearning and leaning toward God and the Christ, which may very well be from God himself.
Josh
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Epignossis
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Re:Will There Be Anything Left? - 2005/03/24 06:40Hey Josh and Eden, I think that is right. It is a matter of faith.
Faith is what accords righteousness. This was so for Rahab, Ruth the Ethiopian Eunuch and many others. An example for us that might be on point is the army officer of whom Jesus said
"I tell YOU the truth, With no one in Israel have I found so great a faith." (Matt 8:10)
Presumably this was a man who was pro-war, being in command of at least 100 men. With such an endorsed faith, it is hard to believe Jesus would have opposed his baptism should he have taken that step. Why would Jesus heal his servant but say "hmmm...you're pro war aren't you. I think you better go away and think about this some more"
Rather would he say "well, you have seen the power of faith - do you think what I am about might mean a change for you?"
It also proves a point of sorts - the faith would be found in the most unusual places and not necessarily where we think it would be. The spirit recognises this and looks past the outward profession of belief, whether it be saying we have "faith" or whether it be saying we are pro-war.
As Eden has said, the baptizer is a functionary for the spirit who is doing the drawing. Rather than get in the way and add our overlay of perception, I think we should allow the spirit's operation. Again as Eden and others have said here then the function is just to make sure a person understands what they are wanting.
More thoughts to add to the pile
ePig Knowledge puffs up, but love builds up. If anyone thinks he has acquired knowledge of something, he does not yet know it just as he ought to know it. But if anyone loves God, this one is known by him - 1 Cor 8:1-3
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